An outsiders view of the ALPA/SWAPA story

[Hose A. Jiminez]

CLCAP,
If the "non-partisan" party (arbitrator) understood the nuances of becoming an airline pilot, and what was required of getting hired by one company over another, I might be inclined to agree. Absent these insights, an arbitrator cannot make a truly fair and equitable ruling. Precedent shows this to be true. Reference Alaska/Jet America, FedEx/Flying Tigers... etc (read guaranteed financial windfall). An arbitrators definition of career expectation does not match that of any airline pilot, other than the one of the pilot being acquired with little to lose and everything to gain. In the hypothetical acquisition of VirginA by AAI, the proverbial shoe would undoubtedly be on the other foot. Being a corporate guy, your misunderstanding is understandable. I hope this explanation helps.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

What they don't want is a delayed agreement and oh yeah they don't want the 717's. Arbitration will delay the integration for a while.

Arbitration award should be out by February at the latest, as per Process Agreement, before SOC date. Pilots group cannot integrate before SOC, so how is Arbitration delaying anything?

SL9 states that integration will take 30 months unless otherwise mutually agreed by SWA and SWAPA (i.e. extended). So you propose 30 month integration, but say that 6 month arbitration will delay things? Which is it?

Gary Kelly got involved with negotiations to expedite the process, and now says he thinks we need to slow things down... good way to expedite things by slowing them down. Which is it?

I'll tell you. MEC vote became a failed attempt for SWAPA to swing the vote of individual pilots via scare tactics.

Don't be saving those 1742 FedEx "fear" packages, you not gonna need them.

 

[400ADude]

I personally couldn't care less. Like I said - I am on the corporate side, and nothing could pry me over to the airline side at this point in time. I was really just trying to understand the SWA pilots here that had the "my way or the highway" attitude.

It's up to Southwest Airlines not SWAPA so whatever "the my way or the highway" guys are saying is irrelevant.

Who cares anyway it is going to arbitration.

 

[400ADude]

Arbitration award should be out by February at the latest, as per Process Agreement, before SOC date. Pilots group cannot integrate before SOC, so how is Arbitration delaying anything?

SL9 states that integration will take 30 months unless otherwise mutually agreed by SWA and SWAPA (i.e. extended). So you propose 30 month integration, but say that 6 month arbitration will delay things? Which is it?

Gary Kelly got involved with negotiations to expedite the process, and now says he thinks we need to slow things down... good way to expedite things by slowing them down. Which is it?

I'll tell you. MEC vote became a failed attempt for SWAPA to swing the vote of individual pilots via scare tactics.

Don't be saving those 1742 FedEx "fear" packages, you not gonna need them.

Good for you!

 

[CLCAP]

CLCAP,
If the "non-partisan" party (arbitrator) understood the nuances of becoming an airline pilot, and what was required of getting hired by one company over another, I might be inclined to agree. Absent these insights, an arbitrator cannot make a truly fair and equitable ruling. Precedent shows this to be true. Reference Alaska/Jet America, FedEx/Flying Tigers... etc (read guaranteed financial windfall). An arbitrators definition of career expectation does not match that of any airline pilot, other than the one of the pilot being acquired with little to lose and everything to gain. In the hypothetical acquisition of VirginA by AAI, the proverbial shoe would undoubtedly be on the other foot. Being a corporate guy, your misunderstanding is understandable. I hope this explanation helps.

Thank you for a well thought out response - however - SWAPA should have considered all that prior to agreeing to binding arbitration.

How about this one:

Take all the ex Airtran guys that have been hired with SWA. Take all the years that they have collectively worked with Airtran and divide it by the number of ex Airtran pilots. Then adjust every Airtran pilots DOH by that amount. That would be a market based approach to value of seniority given up by pilots to join SWA.

 

[waveflyer]

Thank you for a well thought out response - however - SWAPA should have considered all that prior to agreeing to binding arbitration.

How about this one:

Take all the ex Airtran guys that have been hired with SWA. Take all the years that they have collectively worked with Airtran and divide it by the number of ex Airtran pilots. Then adjust every Airtran pilots DOH by that amount. That would be a market based approach to value of seniority given up by pilots to join SWA.

What about all the Swapa pilots who turned down Air Tran? Or never applied bc they had higher aspirations?

 

[scoreboardII]

Is that about right?

No, it's not.

You're describing a situation where two poeple who have previously lived fine together, all of a sudden realize they have differences.



This is a situation where someone unknown is being brought into their house, a guest if you will, and having the guest dictate the terms of the arrangement.

 

[CLCAP]

What about all the Swapa pilots who turned down Air Tran? Or never applied bc they had higher aspirations?

What about them? How can you quantify something that didn't happen? What I proposed would literally show how much seniority an average pilot would be willing to give up at Airtran in order to get hired with SWA - which is what this discussion is about.

 

[CLCAP]

No, it's not.

You're describing a situation where two poeple who have previously lived fine together, all of a sudden realize they have differences.

Point taken.

This is a situation where someone unknown is being brought into their house, a guest if you will, and having the guest dictate the terms of the arrangement.

That is not an accurate description of the situation. Airtran was acquired, not invited. It was also acquired by SWA, not SWAPA. The company includes gates, airplanes, employees, fuel contracts, loans etc - which ones are the guests? What you are describing sounds like a takeover of a company that just filed chapter 7.

 

[On Your Six]

OYS,

Your in the lounge at midnight? Guess it sucks being on reserve at Airtran doesnt it. Hey, go make some more popcorn and then maybe General Lee your other personality will magically come on the forum......

So how many fictitious pilot personalities do you have? And why aren't any of them women?

Say......your not thinking of..... No....don't do it!!!!!!!

Sasha,

I know you are trying to dream about me as a woman, but unfortunately it doesn't work. Good divert though from what really is happening, you guys getting knocked off your feet by the Airtran guys. Wow, even you may lose some numbers, which is well deserved. Maybe you haven't noticed, but I have thousands of posts, and Lee has more than 15,000. Even though you may think that is sad, or your "Airtran buddies" may too, I have been on this board for years, since my furlough and during my corporate gig. You can probably look up old posts in the archives. Lee has been on this board even longer. So, since you are a newbie and oblivious to number of posts per member, I'll let it pass, and just accept that you are an ignorant, scared corndog who is could get smacked soon in arbitration. Don't worry, I'll be watching, rooting for your downfall! Great culture, btw.


OYS

 

[waveflyer]

Your proposal doesn't provide a full accounting of the value difference between the two companies. AT pilots left for swa. True- but thousands more wouldn't leave the military or their regional for AT even though it was attainable.
There is no way to exactly account for it- doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

Should the fact that Air Tran was purchased with profits we helped earn have any effect on the SLI? Since we're talking capitalism...

 

[scoreboardII]

That is not an accurate description of the situation. .

Yes, it is. The only way to accurately describe the situation is to say what it is; they got bought.

 

[On Your Six]

Your proposal doesn't provide a full accounting of the value difference between the two companies. AT pilots left for swa. True- but thousands more wouldn't leave the military or their regional for AT even though it was attainable.
There is no way to exactly account for it- doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

Should the fact that Air Tran was purchased with profits we helped earn have any effect on the SLI? Since we're talking capitalism...

Please use that as evidence in your possible arbitration hearings upcoming. I hope they post the reactions online, and they won't need laugh tracks. Same happened with Colgan. How did they do in arbitration?



OYS

 

[waveflyer]

OYS- at long last: shut the f^ck up- nobody on either side cares what you think

 

[CaptWidgeon]

they got bought.

this seems to be a part of the equation so many overlook. whether intentionally or accidentally i don't know, but this is business. there is a time for hugs and all that good warm fuzzy crap, but sorry, this ain't the time. that's what sl9 was about. seems like there were enough pissed people on both side that it was just about right.

he who has the gold makes the rules.

 

[On Your Six]

OYS- at long last: shut the f^ck up- nobody on either side cares what you think

You're getting mad! (because I am right). Get used to it. Neither side? Wrong.


OYS

 

[On Your Six]

this seems to be a part of the equation so many overlook. whether intentionally or accidentally i don't know, but this is business. there is a time for hugs and all that good warm fuzzy crap, but sorry, this ain't the time. that's what sl9 was about. seems like there were enough pissed people on both side that it was just about right.

he who has the gold makes the rules.

No, that was done away with thanks to the Bond/McKaskill legislation. You can't just staple. Also, all parties seemed to sign the Process Agreement, which outlines the next steps.


OYS

 

[CaptWidgeon]

No, that was done away with thanks to the Bond/McKaskill legislation. You just can't do what you want. You can't just staple. Also, all parties seemed to sign the Process Agreement, which outlines the next steps. But, there could be a negotiated settlement prior to that, I guess.


OYS

if you are saying b/m prevents stapling, period, i believe that's wrong. what is "fair and equitable" in one situation may not apply in another. to say there is never a time when a staple could/would be fair we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[BR715]

Yes if SWAPA does not get their way they will go tell mommy.

 

[redflyer65]

MEC vote became a failed attempt for SWAPA to swing the vote of individual pilots via scare tactics.

Don't be saving those 1742 FedEx "fear" packages, you not gonna need them.

Fly-By,

If and when Gary pulls the complete plug on AAI, you still going to be coming on here posting 'Scare Tactics'. If you really don't think he's considering it, your either not that sharp or not listening up.

RF