An different article on a USAF leader

[Gorilla]

Boyd's technical claims are not why I appreciate his service, my appreciation of Boyd lies in his willingness to do what was right.

Absolutely true, and I honor him for that. That's also why he never made General. "The Man" couldn't stand his honesty.

As far as his reluctance to embrace technology, I believe that he was slow to acknowledge emerging technologies. Today, proven technologies would have probably found a place in his theories.

The problem here is that there is no way to prove technology outside the acid test of combat. If Boyd had his way, those tests would never have occurred.

And I also feel that Boyd's approach to technology was way ahead of his contemporaries who were too quick to embrace the newest gadgets - and subsequently put no gun in the F-4 in favor of the almighty missile, etc. Even McPeak was quoted as saying that one of his regrets was that he let himself be talked into putting a gun in the F-22. A gun is a great weapon (albeit of last resort for the F-22) for strafing an appropriate target of opportunity such as troops in contact and no one else is around to help.

IMO the gun on the F-22 is a waste, and the space and weight should be replaced with fuel. If we are in such a conflict that we have to use the F-22 in a CAS role, we are toast. That implies once again we are taking what should be a pure air-air machine and trying to please congress by calling it an F/A/C-22, and making it do stuff that it wasn't designed to do. I think if Boyd was alive, he'd say "Add more missiles or fuel to the F-22. Leave the CAS to the A-10." We haven't had an air to air gun kill since Viet-Nam except for the A-10 helo kills. The bulk of the AA kills in GW1 were AIM-7. If we want an air to air machine, given what we know of technology, and the pK of modern missiles, we'd have a platform optimized for the carriage of missiles.

With all that, I still think a lot about Boyd, as will anyone reading about him, especially Coram's book. Guys like Boyd come around once every century or so. I'd rank his thought processes and personal courage and integrity right up there with Mitchell, Doolittle, and the heros of old. And that's what's really odd, very few people have ever heard of him, because he "didn't work well with others." That is the death knell in today's military. Screw honesty, intelligence, and integrity, we want you to be a team player above all else, even if that means sacrificing your soul.

All military pilots should read about Boyd.

 

[AlbieF15]

Gorilla,

I agree with you most of the time, but I think you are wrong on the F-22 gun.

The goal in air supremacy is the ability to rid the skies of the thread. Missiles can be decoyed and jammed--the gun cannot. It is the "weapons of last resort...", but it is a vital weapon regardless.

Why? Several reasons.

First--the warrior mindset. Explain to me how to train to fight and kill and do BFM without the ability to max exploit the capabilities of my fighter. It forces us to train to BEST our enemy in a maneuvering fight without the high tech tools. If I am going to send you into combat to kill or die (remember--air combat is the ultimate zero sum game)...I want you to KNOW that regardless of what happens you can kill, survive, and return victorious. While a better measure of combat in the air to air arena is probably how do your run an 8 ship verses how is your offensive BFM, I have met few guys who were GREAT BFM'ers that weren't good at other stuff too. Conversely, guys who couldn't do solid BFM seemed to struggle in other areas. The ability to do sound BFM and kill creates an aggressive mindset that permeates all other tactics.


If I am swirling around with amraams that won't guide and aim-9s that won't track, what do I do? What about when my radar hiccups and quits working? What do I do when I'm out of missiles and a threat aircraft or cruise missile is headed towards my home? The gun provides that last ditch weapon. It is also a surgical weapon--think about how you would use it if you were launched to prevent another 9/11 attack? A gun would provide options a missile might not...

Finally--history has proven every time we go "high tech" in war we end up longing for some old tech tools. Soliders in Vietnam hated the M-16, and many used M-1 Garands and even Shotguns to augment the poor reliability of the weapons. Above them--the aim-9 and aim-7 were proving that kills weren't "automatic". Knowing I've got a solid, proven weapon in the heat of the battle...whether its a Remington 870 with 00 buck or a vucan 20mm cannon--allows me to make aggressive decisions that can turn the tide of battle. Going in "hoping" my missiles will guide or my M-16 won't jam "this time" won't create the kind of aggessive spirit we'll need to win the next big one.

So...you just merged with a Su-27. You shot your 3 aim-120s and got 3 kills...and an aim-9x just splashed another Mig-29. However--the Flanker is now lead turning your wingman who is in a defensive break turn. What would you rather have right now--400 extra pounds of gas or a gun?

Just one Eagle Driver's opinion...

 

[MarineGrunt]

I had more leadership training in my 13 weeks of Marine boot camp than I have had my 2+ years as a guard officer. Not deliberately busting on the guard, but nothing will grow if you don't plant seeds....

United States Marine Corps 12 Leadership Traits (not limited to just Marines!)
1. JUSTICE - Giving reward and punishment according to merit in the case in question. The ability to administer a system or rewards and punishment impartially and consistently.
2. JUDGEMENT - The ability to weight facts and possible solutions on which to base sound decisions.
3. DECICIVENESS - The ability to make decisions promptly and announce them in a clear, forceful manner.
4. INITIATIVE - Taking action in the absence of orders.
5. DEPENDABILITY - The certainty of proper performance of duty.
6. TACT - The ability to deal with others without creating offense.
7. INTEGRITY - The uprightness of character and soundness of moral principle; includes qualities of truthfulness and honesty.
8. ENDURANCE - The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress and hardship.
9. BEARING - Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance and personal conduct at all times.
10. UNSELFISHNESS - Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort, and personal advancement and personal advancement at the expense of others.
11. COURAGE - The mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
12. KNOWLEDGE - Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and knowledge of your Marines.
13. LOYALTY - The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers.
14. ENTHUSIASIM - The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty.

 

[Gorilla]

Albie, my heart totally agrees with you. As an ex F-15 guy, the thought of giving up my beloved gun would have made me nuts. I bet if you did an individual poll of air-air jocks, 95% would want one. The reasons you gave are sound, and there will undoubtedly be situations where a gun would make the difference.

Unfortunately my head says "missiles". I'm thinking like a general here, even though I never came close. When looked upon from a strategic view, additional fuel or maybe another pair of heaters makes more sense, purely IMO. We know what the pK of the Sidewinder is, and the current crop of radar missiles are excellent. If I was king of the AF, I would have a decade ago created a crash-program to design a super-heater, with 3X the maneuverability, smaller size, and sacrificed range if necessary. Our seeker technology, both IR and contrast, is superb, and we could easily field a missile that pulls 40 to 80 G's and an envelope that easily overlaps the gun.

Even without a new missile, though, the current Sidewinders are very, very good. The Brits in the Falklands took 22 of 24 argentines, and that was an AIM-9L patch to the Sea Harrier with no range cues, break-X, no symbology whatsoever besides the tone.

It'll be a sad day but I believe the days of the gunfighter are waning. I know I'm in the minority here. Feel free to pummel me if we ever meet! Look at it this way - when we are toothless and gumming a shot of whiskey, we'll be able to say "back in MY day, we had a BIG F*&^^%G GUN; a man-weapon!" and the new lootenants will be envious.

 

[JimNtexas]

If an F-22 ever gets within gun range of a threat then the U.S. Air Force has already suffered a huge loss. That airplane has no business maneuvering with anything.

I understand exactly why the air-to-air guys want a gun, and I'm sure I'd say the same thing in their shoes. But the fact is that if our technology breaks down to the point where advanced missiles don't work, then the F-22 won't work either.

To justify the incredible cost the F-22 must engage many threats at once. If we are down to F-22 gunfights then the other side has already won the war.

The F-22 is too valuable to risk in visual dogfights. We have F-16s for that.

Were there any gun kills in Desert Storm?

 

[AlbieF15]

You are missing the point. If a Mig 29 HAD showed up alive at the merge, what do you think would have been the outcome against an F-15 or F-16 that had honed their dogfighing skills doing DACT?

Conversely--how well will a Raptor pilot fight if he thinks that if does show up with at a visual merge he is at a disadvantage? He's a killing machine outside 10 miles--but inside that he feels "threatened?" How aggressive will that guy really be?

Its moot anyway--the leadership HAS invested in a gun. They probably hope we never get to need it. However--rest assured--as long as Raptor pilots get hard-ons thinking about gunning that dumb SOB who was lucky enough to get by an amraam with a bad fuze, we'll own the skies. When our fighter pilots think "(gulp)...hope I don't ever have to go mano vs mano verses a Sukoi/Mig XXX"....we have a serious problem.

Remember--we need WARRIORS, not just technicians. The gun forces us to keep our warrior focus.

I'm right. Cease babble. Everyone just needs to agree with me and nod their heads...

 

[CWGrizwald]

Gun Kills

Were there any gun kills in Desert Storm?[/quote]

2 helos were killed by the mighty GAU-8!

 

[Gorilla]

Albie, I've always thought that the fighter pilot "I'm big, bad, and larger than life" mindset is important, and wins battles. Sadly, that attitude is frowned upon these days.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. Here's a stupid one. Let's say a grunt can carry either a set of night vision goggles, or a knife, but not both. The troops love the knife, train for it, and it gives them confidence. In the big picture, though, the NVG's are vastly more useful and will result in more enemy dead.

OK, that really sucks. It is hard to quantify the "killer spirit" that is necessary to win. All of your points are valid, but by definition the gun is a day VMC weapon that takes a looong time to use correctly. The pilot is asking to be shot in the belly by the enemy's wingman. The gunfighter cannot help but focus almost 100% on his target, while unfortunately there are usually other enemy aircraft swirling about. You and I both have shot dozens or hundreds of guys with heaters while they're trying to gun somebody. Wouldn't it make more sense for the F-22 to attempt a separation?

I still like the idea of a micro-heater, something very cheap, short ranged, and agile, as a gun replacement. You can foster an aggressive mindset when you've got a missile that needs <2500' slant range.

I think we've beat this to death. I can only dream of getting back into a fighter. I remember when the Eagles were "only" $20 million or so each, and we treated them like a national treasure. I have a tough time thinking of a $200 million F-22 trying to solve a gun track in the midst of a swirl of MiG-21's, any one of which can smoke him while he's totally vulnerable and predictable.

<sigh> I've got a turn to Mexico; no more fighters for me. Pull some G's for me today, would you? I'm glad you're an F-15 IP. Teach those young pups what it's all about.

Edit - Idea: How about a single barreled 30mm automatic cannon? Something 1/3 the size and weight of the M-61. Lower ROF, longer-ranged, something the bad guys MUST still respect when the F-22 is saddled up on him.

 

[Gorilla]

I had more leadership training in my 13 weeks of Marine boot camp than I have had my 2+ years as a guard officer. Not deliberately busting on the guard, but nothing will grow if you don't plant seeds....

United States Marine Corps 12 Leadership Traits (not limited to just Marines!)
1. JUSTICE - Giving reward and punishment according to merit in the case in question. The ability to administer a system or rewards and punishment impartially and consistently.
2. JUDGEMENT - The ability to weight facts and possible solutions on which to base sound decisions.
3. DECICIVENESS - The ability to make decisions promptly and announce them in a clear, forceful manner.
4. INITIATIVE - Taking action in the absence of orders.
5. DEPENDABILITY - The certainty of proper performance of duty.
6. TACT - The ability to deal with others without creating offense.
7. INTEGRITY - The uprightness of character and soundness of moral principle; includes qualities of truthfulness and honesty.
8. ENDURANCE - The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress and hardship.
9. BEARING - Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance and personal conduct at all times.
10. UNSELFISHNESS - Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort, and personal advancement and personal advancement at the expense of others.
11. COURAGE - The mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
12. KNOWLEDGE - Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and knowledge of your Marines.
13. LOYALTY - The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers.
14. ENTHUSIASIM - The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty.

This is a superb summary of what makes a soldier great. John Boyd took 12 out of 14 and ran them off the scale. Two of them he took deep into the negative side... TACT and BEARING. Especially Tact. Such as poking a general in the chest with a lit cigar, and setting his tie on fire, while telling the general "You are full of $hit!!" :nuts:

He made a LOT of enemies, and at the same time he had a core of disciples that were there with him through it all. Maybe some of the older guys remember the Fighter Mafia at the Pentagon. That was Boyd, the father of the F-15, F-16, and the entire modern theory of Energy/Maneuverability.

 

[milplt]

I'm withAlbie on the F-22 gun - you go to war expecting the worst - and you have to assume that if we fight the hordes (sp?) the F-22's will have shot all of their missiles and still have some killing to do.

Grunt - how about self-defense (close quarters combat) skills in the guard? Non-existent, huh? I think that training would go a long way towards getting us into the correct mentality - a little reminder that we ARE the military, not to mention the acquisition of some useful skills. It's sad that FedEx has better CQC training than the USAF for most of it's personnel.

Jim, I think the point is that we train for the worst and hope for the best. It may not be probable, but in the big one it could easily happen - with the numbers of F-22's we are gaining, fighting outnumbered is going to be the norm and missiles are a finite resource. Same with the CQC drills, that crewmember may never need it, but there is a .001% chance that they may.

And Gorilla, just to play devil's advocate: if the marine knew that he was going in with his squad for an indefinite amount of time without support, he may choose the knife over the NVG's. Batteries die, electronics fail, and without the support chain become useless eventually. But the knife will never fail him. Probability, low: possibility, yes - and when training for combat, you account for all known possibilities.