Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

An different article on a USAF leader

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Why does anyone think that if we are better than the USAF of the Carter administration, we are good enough - is that the standard?

The biggest problem with the current USAF is that our young personnel do not have the good examples of leaders to emulate. We couldn't scrounge up a Patton or Kenney or Mitchell if we tried. When we older dudes came in, we were trained well - and that ain't happening anymore. The young troops now have the likes of the current senior leaders to look up to - and as a result we have the young officers thinking that they deserve to have their views listened to, if not acted upon, just because they filled out an end-of-course critique. In the old days, when the older officers old us not to carry our bookbags over our shouder, we listened. Now, they ask why not and say they have a right to do what they want. In the old days, enlisted troops called officers sir, now.....

It is up to us to re-calibrate the pictures of our future leaders - because the current leaders aren't doing it. We need to stop making IP's of pilots who haven't earned the right or displayed the talent - TOS is not a sole factor. We need to stop acting as if AC or 2FL is an undeniable right. We need to stop giving the worst pilots in the Sq their AC or 2FL stamp and a trip to AETC just to get rid of them. No more FAIP's, if they are good instructors now, they'll be better after an operational tour. AFPC needs to stop stealing talent from the squadron before the squadron has had a chance to recoup a return on the investment. We need to stop berating officers for being short with the enlisted troop in MPF - maybe the enlisted troop was actually insubordinate. We need to remember the obligations of being a line officer and the requirements of customs and courtesies - there are reasons for these things. The gate guard (the military one) does need to salute me as I go through the gate and refer to me as sir, and no, I don't need to do a tour with them to see how hard their job is. They didn't shadow me through officer training, UPT, RTU, etc. - it's a voluntary force and they had the same opportunities as I did. I don't need to thank a crew chief, I need to tell them when they did a good job in supporting the mission (they don't support me) - and if they are unclear on the mission, their leadership needs to explain how they help get the bombs on target, etc. I don't think that they will have to charge a machine gun nest, but I should have no concerns that they would if required. Those that deploy and go into harm's way do deserve different treatment than those that don't. Support squadrons need to figure out how not to close every other Tuesday after 12:00 - answer the phone if it is ringing. Actually, answer the phone after 4:30 on any other day, also. (Are there any operational personnel out there who would consider not answering the ringing phone based only on what the clock says?). We don't need to go back to the white top staff car and we certainly don't need commanders badges - oops, too late.

We are a good air force, but we can be better. We haven't fought the big war, yet. The only problem with Fogelman's reading list is that it didn't stick. There is nothing wrong with looking in the past for a standard before you grade yourself as an individual warrior. Accounts in books such as Gen Kenney Reports or The Heart of a Man by Frank Elkins are eye-opening to say the least.
 
Last edited:
RampFreeze said:
I'm guessing it was Tegucigalpa, Honduras. If it was, the part that was missing from the 757 pilot's description is that in order to fly into that airfield at night/IMC in his 757 he had to be specially certified by his airline and use special procedures that were tailored for the avionics in the 757. I've flown in there and wouldn't want to do it at night without the above equipment and procedures. (Without special, tailored procedures the wx mins are 2400-3 for a circling approach or 1700-3 for an RNAV straight-in approach . For the RNAV straight-in, a 3 degree glidepath VDP would be behind the FAF.) As much as I think the USAF has gone ultra-conservative/risk averse in its decision making, this is one place where I think they've got it right. Short of being the only hope of saving the universe, I wouldn't want an unfamiliar C-130 crew to go in there at night either.

Here are some pictures that still don't do justice to that airfield:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0045647/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0141994/M/
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0045648/M/

Unfortunately, your first 2 examples sound too familiar and I don't doubt them for a minute...

DUDES!!!

Look at the picture, ITS A 727 going in there!!!! Surely USAF 130's have NVG capable crews? Come on.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.
 
scoreboard said:
DUDES!!!

Look at the picture, ITS A 727 going in there!!!! Surely USAF 130's have NVG capable crews? Come on.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.

Yes, the USAF has NVG capable C-130 crews. Did you not know that? Come on.

It's not quite as simple as you seem to make it out to be. That airfield isn't somewhere you just want to drop into on the fly for quick stop. Very doable, but with the right planning.
 
It is up to us to re-calibrate the pictures of our future leaders - because the current leaders aren't doing it. We need to stop making IP's of pilots who haven't earned the right or displayed the talent - TOS is not a sole factor. We need to stop acting as if AC or 2FL is an undeniable right. We need to stop giving the worst pilots in the Sq their AC or 2FL stamp and a trip to AETC just to get rid of them.

Exceptionally well said. (All the more reason we need the "good guys" to stay in and make a difference.) However, poor leadership isn't isolated to the 21st Century AF. I've got a close family member who was an AC of a B-17 over Europe in WWII, flew his full tour there and then went on to fly B-29s. His career spanned from the 40s through the 70s before he retired as a Lt Col. Over the years, we have sat down over many a beer and discussed the USAF he knew vs. the one we are discussing today. His take on it is really interesting. He said that the proportion of "poor leaders" in Sr. Positions then compared to today is probably about the same. Bad leaders were more instantly visible in WWII because getting a bunch of your guys killed is a pretty easy success/failure indicator to look at. However, his view is that politics was as much of a discriminator as anything else when it came to assuming Sr. Command. He was only a Lt, but he saw plenty of guys he thought would be great Sq/CCs and Group CCs passed up. (Bear in mind that the promotion timeline during WWII was hyper-compressed) One example he talks of is a group commander he had in England that had no business being in command, was a lousy pilot and who wasn't even fully qualified on the B-17. Yet, this guy decided to lead his group into battle one day and lost a huge percentage of his crews because he was an idiot. Guess what, the guy did get "laterally assigned" eventually, but ultimately ended up getting promoted in the long run.

He does say one thing very interesting with respect to how promotion boards work today. His view is that back in his day (40s-70s), the "good old boys" network was a much more powerful influence on promotion. If your boss wanted you to get promoted, it would probably happen. If he didn't, you'd probably remain a captain forever. He said today the system appears to be much more sterile and if you tick the right boxes, the chances are much greater that one boss isn't going to have a huge impact whether or not you get promoted up through O-6 unless you really tube it bad. (Probably the result of too many guys calling their congressman and claiming that they got screwed...) If you play the game (and realize, it is the game of today, not yester-year) you'll probably end up making at least O-5 and probably O-6. Yes, there are scores of exceptions that all of us can name, but in general, this is his view. The downside is that anyone can play the game now and there is much less opportunity for leadership to remove weak swimmers from the pool just because their gut tells them it’s the right thing to do. (This adds all the more credence to milplt’s argument on not upgrading guys to AC/Flt Lead just to download the problem child to AETC.)
 
Make's the point

Scrapdog said:
Wow, you say some pretty depressing sh*t and that's just too bad. I wasn't a LT in the 70's, but I was one in the early 2000's and I have to say there are still some outstanding leadership. I've had three SQ/CC's that are awesome individuals as well as outstanding aviators. Not only do they do a great job dealing with the queep, but they are still top notch instructors and have great SA in the airspace.

This point was made in the original article, the job is being done because of the great work in the squadrons. I saw this myself in my last flying job, as a passed over Maj, I got to spend three years in an Ops Sqdn as a line pilot flying with the Lts and Capts. We had awesome Sqdn Leadership and towards the end or my tour we deployed to the war-de-jour and had great success. I see the problem in the fact that the last opportunity someone has to have daily contact with the war fighters, be they pilots, WSOs, aircrew or ETACs is at the LtCol Sqdn CC level. After that it's all about OGs who want ot be Wing kings and Wing Kings who want to be GOs. Heck, when a Sqdn goes to war, they don't even let their OG or Wing CC go with to fly and lead. Some strange person, from a different jet is there and all he is trying to do is not be the next BG Schwallier (SP). Once you are a GO, forget about having any clue about what is going on where the work is being done.
 
RampFreeze said:
If you play the game (and realize, it is the game of today, not yester-year) you'll probably end up making at least O-5 and probably O-6.
Probably not the O-6 level. The most recent board that just got released saw about 25% get promoted with a "P". On O-5 buddy of mine said that at an F-15 base (I think he said Langley), there were 8 squadron CC's (I assume he meant current and previous ones) that didn't make O-6.
 
On O-5 buddy of mine said that at an F-15 base (I think he said Langley), there were 8 squadron CC's (I assume he meant current and previous ones) that didn't make O-6.

I'm not doubting his observation, but I've got to wonder how many of those guys were still BTZ... I had to look it up on the AFPC site for myself. The Stats for the latest board from AFPC show a 50.2% overall select rate for Pilots who met the board IPZ. (Both Ps and DPs) (39.8% for guys with just a P, not counting the guys who self eliminated by not doing SDE in correspondance or residence) Get this, Air Battle Managers got promoted at a rate of 62.1% (but they only made up 4% of the eligibles so the stats are probably skewed a bit - liars figure and figures lie...)
 
Last edited:
Scrapdog,

Would those same CC you're talking about jump on the sword for there men or would they first weigh the effects on there career and then make a move. Hopefully they put the men first.
 
pkober said:
Scrapdog,

Would those same CC you're talking about jump on the sword for there men or would they first weigh the effects on there career and then make a move. Hopefully they put the men first.

The Sq/CC's I had would put the men first everytime, no question about it.
 
Scrapdog said:
The Sq/CC's I had would put the men first everytime, no question about it.

I think about 90% of the Squadron Commanders I had over 20 years were very capable and did as much as they were allowed to concentrate on mission and people first.

About 10% were incompetent and some of those were evil. Sadly the promotion rates of the incompetents to O-6 was 100%.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top