An different article on a USAF leader

[AlbieF15]

You are missing the point. If a Mig 29 HAD showed up alive at the merge, what do you think would have been the outcome against an F-15 or F-16 that had honed their dogfighing skills doing DACT?

Conversely--how well will a Raptor pilot fight if he thinks that if does show up with at a visual merge he is at a disadvantage? He's a killing machine outside 10 miles--but inside that he feels "threatened?" How aggressive will that guy really be?

Its moot anyway--the leadership HAS invested in a gun. They probably hope we never get to need it. However--rest assured--as long as Raptor pilots get hard-ons thinking about gunning that dumb SOB who was lucky enough to get by an amraam with a bad fuze, we'll own the skies. When our fighter pilots think "(gulp)...hope I don't ever have to go mano vs mano verses a Sukoi/Mig XXX"....we have a serious problem.

Remember--we need WARRIORS, not just technicians. The gun forces us to keep our warrior focus.

I'm right. Cease babble. Everyone just needs to agree with me and nod their heads...

 

[CWGrizwald]

Gun Kills

Were there any gun kills in Desert Storm?[/quote]

2 helos were killed by the mighty GAU-8!

 

[Gorilla]

Albie, I've always thought that the fighter pilot "I'm big, bad, and larger than life" mindset is important, and wins battles. Sadly, that attitude is frowned upon these days.

I'm trying to think of an analogy. Here's a stupid one. Let's say a grunt can carry either a set of night vision goggles, or a knife, but not both. The troops love the knife, train for it, and it gives them confidence. In the big picture, though, the NVG's are vastly more useful and will result in more enemy dead.

OK, that really sucks. It is hard to quantify the "killer spirit" that is necessary to win. All of your points are valid, but by definition the gun is a day VMC weapon that takes a looong time to use correctly. The pilot is asking to be shot in the belly by the enemy's wingman. The gunfighter cannot help but focus almost 100% on his target, while unfortunately there are usually other enemy aircraft swirling about. You and I both have shot dozens or hundreds of guys with heaters while they're trying to gun somebody. Wouldn't it make more sense for the F-22 to attempt a separation?

I still like the idea of a micro-heater, something very cheap, short ranged, and agile, as a gun replacement. You can foster an aggressive mindset when you've got a missile that needs <2500' slant range.

I think we've beat this to death. I can only dream of getting back into a fighter. I remember when the Eagles were "only" $20 million or so each, and we treated them like a national treasure. I have a tough time thinking of a $200 million F-22 trying to solve a gun track in the midst of a swirl of MiG-21's, any one of which can smoke him while he's totally vulnerable and predictable.

<sigh> I've got a turn to Mexico; no more fighters for me. Pull some G's for me today, would you? I'm glad you're an F-15 IP. Teach those young pups what it's all about.

Edit - Idea: How about a single barreled 30mm automatic cannon? Something 1/3 the size and weight of the M-61. Lower ROF, longer-ranged, something the bad guys MUST still respect when the F-22 is saddled up on him.

 

[Gorilla]

I had more leadership training in my 13 weeks of Marine boot camp than I have had my 2+ years as a guard officer. Not deliberately busting on the guard, but nothing will grow if you don't plant seeds....

United States Marine Corps 12 Leadership Traits (not limited to just Marines!)
1. JUSTICE - Giving reward and punishment according to merit in the case in question. The ability to administer a system or rewards and punishment impartially and consistently.
2. JUDGEMENT - The ability to weight facts and possible solutions on which to base sound decisions.
3. DECICIVENESS - The ability to make decisions promptly and announce them in a clear, forceful manner.
4. INITIATIVE - Taking action in the absence of orders.
5. DEPENDABILITY - The certainty of proper performance of duty.
6. TACT - The ability to deal with others without creating offense.
7. INTEGRITY - The uprightness of character and soundness of moral principle; includes qualities of truthfulness and honesty.
8. ENDURANCE - The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress and hardship.
9. BEARING - Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance and personal conduct at all times.
10. UNSELFISHNESS - Avoidance of providing for one's own comfort, and personal advancement and personal advancement at the expense of others.
11. COURAGE - The mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
12. KNOWLEDGE - Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and knowledge of your Marines.
13. LOYALTY - The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers.
14. ENTHUSIASIM - The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty.

This is a superb summary of what makes a soldier great. John Boyd took 12 out of 14 and ran them off the scale. Two of them he took deep into the negative side... TACT and BEARING. Especially Tact. Such as poking a general in the chest with a lit cigar, and setting his tie on fire, while telling the general "You are full of $hit!!" :nuts:

He made a LOT of enemies, and at the same time he had a core of disciples that were there with him through it all. Maybe some of the older guys remember the Fighter Mafia at the Pentagon. That was Boyd, the father of the F-15, F-16, and the entire modern theory of Energy/Maneuverability.

 

[milplt]

I'm withAlbie on the F-22 gun - you go to war expecting the worst - and you have to assume that if we fight the hordes (sp?) the F-22's will have shot all of their missiles and still have some killing to do.

Grunt - how about self-defense (close quarters combat) skills in the guard? Non-existent, huh? I think that training would go a long way towards getting us into the correct mentality - a little reminder that we ARE the military, not to mention the acquisition of some useful skills. It's sad that FedEx has better CQC training than the USAF for most of it's personnel.

Jim, I think the point is that we train for the worst and hope for the best. It may not be probable, but in the big one it could easily happen - with the numbers of F-22's we are gaining, fighting outnumbered is going to be the norm and missiles are a finite resource. Same with the CQC drills, that crewmember may never need it, but there is a .001% chance that they may.

And Gorilla, just to play devil's advocate: if the marine knew that he was going in with his squad for an indefinite amount of time without support, he may choose the knife over the NVG's. Batteries die, electronics fail, and without the support chain become useless eventually. But the knife will never fail him. Probability, low: possibility, yes - and when training for combat, you account for all known possibilities.

 

[JimNtexas]

Were there any gun kills in Desert Storm?

2 helos were killed by the mighty GAU-8![/quote]

Oh yes, I was an ALO with the Army when that happened. My Army friends made sure I was aware of it.

 

[ExAF]

Iraqi Chopper

2 helos were killed by the mighty GAU-8!

Oh yes, I was an ALO with the Army when that happened. My Army friends made sure I was aware of it.[/quote]I think this is referring to the A-10 that shot down an Iraqi helo not the Eagle and Blackhawks incident.

 

[JimNtexas]

Oh yes, I was an ALO with the Army when that happened. My Army friends made sure I was aware of it.

I think this is referring to the A-10 that shot down an Iraqi helo not the Eagle and Blackhawks incident.[/quote]

Yes, I'm sure you're right, unless the Eagle is now carrying the Gau-8 gunpod.

Maybe the Army and Air Force ought to agree that the F-22 can engage the Patriot when ever it wants, and the Patriots can shoot down however many F-22s they can bag. That would keep them both busy and out of the way of the war.


Just kidding, air to air guys.

 

[ExAF]

Just wonderin'

I was just wondering why the Army would be rubbing an ALO's nose in it if a Hog shot down an enemy helo. That's how it came across to me. Didn't mean to infer you didn't know what a GAU-8 was. However, now you've done it. I'm sure some egghead will want to put a GAU-8 pod on a mud eagle and tie it in with a LANTIRN.

 

[JimNtexas]

I was just wondering why the Army would be rubbing an ALO's nose in it if a Hog shot down an enemy helo. ...

I was thinking about the time in 1994 when the Eagles shot down the two friendly helicopters in Iraq.

I was an ALO when that happened, and the Army certainly did rub my nose in it. I was particpating in an exericse at Fort Carson. They stuck pictures of Blackhawks all over our work area and vehicles with captions like "FRIENDLY!" and "DON'T KILL US!".

Most of them understand that s**t happens, but a few really angry guys buttonholed me and read me the riot act. I just chalked it up to grief and didn't argue with them.