AMR Proposal Highlights

[ALGFLYR]

sorry. no worries. That attitude of "I'd fly big shinny jets for that pay" really gets me fired up sometimes.

I never said that the pay rate was good. I agree it's not the best for those aircraft types (none of which are on the property). What I was commenting on was the fact that the pay proposal did not reduce the hourly pay rate on any aircraft currently on the property... (There may be a small change in some as the A/C get banded together, but pilots currently on that equipment will be pay protected)

Also remember this is just an opener from the company. It may be possible to get those rates a little higher during negotiations. The question is what would they have to give up to raise the rates on an A/C thats not on property?

I don't know enough about the current work rules at AA to know what the proposed changes would mean. Thus my comments were mostly focused on pay rates...

 

[Hpilot]

What color is the sky in your world ? The flying is only outsourced if the Mainline carriers allow it.

It should be one seniority list per airline.

Yep, I know a retired American pilot that was one of the ones that pushed to have one list at American, no eagle. He and others were ridden over by the scope morons.

Now is the time for the American pilots to try and work with management, taking a complete hard line will just allow some BK judge to shove a US type contract down their throats. That being said, their current CEO is a friggin' idiot. Growth of 20%, yeah that's great. We finally are able to cut some capacity and raise ticket prices and this tool wants to expand 20%. What does he care? He'll take a 2nd trip to bankruptcy and dive out with a golden parachute.

 

[dicko]

Actually, it was 86 seats. Of course, you missed the part about only allowing 15 of them, and it was only done because it was necessary in order to achieve the holding company scope, which was far more important. We had none prior to this CBA, and SWA would have been able to simply take our assets and toss us aside if we didn't have it. Kind of an important item.



Well, that's just a gross distortion. Sick time always pays at 100% at AirTran, no matter how many events you have. If you get over 5 events in a year, then your accrual reduces to 4 hours from 6 until an event drops off, but if you have 150 hours of sick time, you can use all of it at 100% pay, even if you have dozens of events. The company is also prohibited from asking for a doctor's note or instituting any sort of sick policy. Definitely not comparable to AMR's draconian proposal.

You criticized 88 seat RJ's and personally signed a contract allowing the outsourcing of 86 seat RJ's. That's the equivalent of 11 B717's that could have been flown by AirTran pilots. It's also hypocrisy.

You criticized a reduction in sick pay for events, and personally signed a contract that reduces accrual of sick time for events. A reduction in the amount of sick time accrual to 66%. You're splitting hairs. Each hour is worth money.

The underlined portion above is untrue: "In questionable cases the Chief Pilot may request a Doctors note" ..... Straight from the contract you signed. Did you forget ?

Fail.

 

[waveflyer]

I've always operated under one 3-pt personal sick policy
1-never call out sick if I'm not sick
2-never fail to call out sick if I am.
3-never provide a doctor's note for anyone once I graduated high school. We have a number of responsibilities as airline pilots, and the responsibility to self certify is explicit- is it strange to demand to be trusted?

Btw-As for grouping pay- I have always advocated that one singular pay rate is the best system for pilots over a career. I've met too many older pilots flying international when they'd rather not, only bc they feel they have to financially- which forces training events every step up- and I feel it divides the unions- one pay= pilots of all ages and seniority do the flying they WANT to do- which means a greater cross section of age and seniority on each fleet- multiple pay rates cause a "pooling" of age/seniority groups in various fleets who all tend to transition together as their seniority can hold the next highest paying gig- creates cliques that can severely damage unity among the pilot group.
But I do not propose taking the capitalism out of flying- that one rate ought to be determined by a blended rate.

(Funny, managers of small plane operations, always use a lack of revenue on puddle jumpers to provide god-awful pay. And managers of large to heavy plane airlines always want to ignore the revenue each plane has- such a double standard -)

Good luck to all AA pilots- we're pulling for you and know this sucks.

 

[ualdriver]

I think we have to keep in mind that the term sheet is the company's openers. Yes, they're in bankruptcy so management will have significant leverage, but if I remember the 1113 process from years ago they still have to make an attempt to negotiate in good faith and they have to prove to the judge that abrogating sections of the pilot contract are necessary in order for AMR to emerge successfully from bankruptcy to compete. Does AMR need 80 seat+ scope in order to compete? Will the APA be able to chisel away at some of the more onerous terms on that sheet and/or horse trade other parts? We shall see.

I remember that UA had some pretty unpalatable demands of the pilots during their openers as well that we were able to negotiate away. Hopefully the APA will be able to do the same as that 6 year contract will likely be a 10 year contract after the bankruptcy is over and AMR is done abusing the RLA when the follow-up contract is negotiated.

 

[SWAdude]

If APA is smart, they will undo the mistake they made in 1997 and get the RJ's under the AA umbrella. Don't get stupid greedy like they did last time. Just get them over and in time negotiate a better wage and benefits package. Exactly like they did with the B scale.

 

[outerlimits]

If APA is smart, they will undo the mistake they made in 1997 and get the RJ's under the AA umbrella. Don't get stupid greedy like they did last time. Just get them over and in time negotiate a better wage and benefits package. Exactly like they did with the B scale.

Every airline that has a feeder operation needs to do this.

It is a no brainier .

 

[suupah]

It may be better to end the company than to let the 88 seater get into the hands of the teenagers...just sayin.

sadly so many of us have been stuck at the regionals for so long, we are no longer teenagers.

 

[C-150ETOPS]

APA has offered low ball rates to fly the 70 RJ in the past. AMR has said no. APA would probably negotiate competitive rates for EMB type 90-120 seat jets under the 1113 process.

Like in the past, AMR has and probably will fight against AA pilots flying them. What's the hold up? Sorry if this offends some on this board, but the problem we have is a certain job that requires nothing but a GED and 1 week of training.

The big clue that AMR has no intention of competing in the small jet area other than codesharing of Eagle is although they propose that APA fly the A319 far less than any other network carrier, even $20 less for a Captain than Spirit, they did nothing to address the costs of the 3 flight attendants in the back of these jets. They offered the FA's a 15 year pay of $46 plus a raise this year or next and with the elderly age of their group, that is what will be crewing a small jet if they are serious with APA.

The end translation, the total hourly flight crew labor cost for AA to fly these jets would be the same as their competitors. The difference is the AA pilots onboard would be working for 20% less while the FA's will be working for 50%+ or more than their counterparts at other airlines. Do the math. with the seniority of their group, it's nearly $150 hour for their group in back compared to airline XYZ with 3 younger FAs at $75 hour. AA wants APA to eat the difference.

In 2003, AMR offered the 70 CRJ-900's to APA as long as they were "labor cost neutral" over going to Eagle. I believe APA offered close or less than Comair rates. The APFA said no thanks, we'll take full pay. The TWU rampers said the same thing.

APA could have offered FO's at $5/hour and it still wouldn't have been "cost nuetral"

 

[PCL_128]

C-150ETOPS, that's all true, but with AMR now in bankruptcy, they have the ability to rectify that problem without the pilots having to work for less than competitive rates. If the pilots agree to competitive rates to fly the equipment, but the FAs and rampers refuse, then the 1113(c) process is just as easy to abrogate their contracts as it is to abrogate ours. I can't imagine that any bankruptcy judge would be too sympathetic with a group of FAs that insists on being paid 50% more than their peer at other airlines on similar equipment.