AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

[Crzipilot]

THE COURT: Okay. And do you agree with
Mr. Syzmanski that there is at least the potential of a fair
negotiation and seniority agreement that is divined that is not Nicolau and is not date of hire but is a confluence of both?
MR. HARPER: You mean between the West and the East
Pilots?
THE COURT: Well, yes. The proposal they come to thetable with. They come to the table under the MOU and startnegotiating with the APA. Does it have to be Nicolau becausethen we're -- the two of you are standing stiff-legged.
MR. HARPER: We are.
THE COURT: And contrary to what I have ordered,which is that you must both give in and reach an agreement thatcan be a confluence of both, the fairness of the Nicolauagreement and perhaps the fairness of DOH. Now, if you're
taking that position, then there's a problem.
MR. HARPER: We're taking the position that they have
a duty to follow through with what they agreed -- ALPA agreed
to and Airways accepted back in 2007 which is the Nicolau.
That is our position, Your Honor. And we think that the union
has the duty to represent us, the minority, and not trump us
because they are the majority and put something else on the
table.
THE COURT: So, then, are you not, then, in violation
of the agreement or the Court's order? I made quite clear --
do I have to read the Court order to you, too, Mr. Harper?
MR. HARPER: I don't think -- I'm sure we're not in
violation because --
THE COURT: Well, I said they do not have to adopt
Nicolau. Okay?
Now, they have said, and Mr. Syzmanski very candidly
said today they are not Nicolau. Are you saying on the other
side it has to be Nicolau?
MR. HARPER: We are saying the duty is to present the
Nicolau in the course of the pilot integration process --
THE COURT: Okay. Just present it but not propose itas the only method and means of adopting a seniority agreement.

MR. HARPER: When we get to this process here --
that's the process. When we get to the process --
Jen, can we put this back up, the timeline?
Your Honor, we go in to the post-August 15, 2013, and
moving in to the end of the year. We're saying when they go to start that process, that they need to present the Nicolau Award unless they have a legitimate union purpose for not doing so.
The touchstone is the legitimate union purpose.
THE COURT: Okay. Okay. I agree with you. But the
legitimated union purpose can be in representing everyone whichwould also be the East Pilots and coming up with a combination;
right? You agree that there are a variety of different
seniority agreements --

So what's this mean to you guys??? How many times does she state, USAPA does not have to adopt the NIC? I read at least 4, among other nuggets like, Harper not complying with the her order to sit down and come off the NIC.......

Or is my reading comprehension off here? BUTB, what do you read into these snipets?

 

[Crzipilot]

So I guess there is your elusive LUP, Silver just defined it for everyone, as simple as representing EVERYONE........

Check.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

First of all you could care less if USAPA uses the Nicolau... you want the company to implement it and publish a system bid.

No, what I want is for every east pilot to pay the west pilots every penny they were entitled to for denied advancement. What should happen is that Silver will order that USAPA use the Nic for it's negotiations with APA and she will place sufficient safeguards to make sure it is not neglected.

If you want Silver to force the company to use the Nic you must show the 2005 TA requirements have been met and you will immediately have the Nic. Good luck,

Every party in this case agrees that the trigger has been met. While the MOU on it's face is neutral with respect to seniority, it triggers requirements in the TA. It is imperitive that the SLI from the AWA/US merger be completed prior to the M-B arbitration board combining AMR/US. The Nicolau is the only accepted list that complies with the TA requirements. That is not to say that the Board of Slime can't go in and change the TA, but they haven't and for good reason: it is a DFR land mine.

Now, LUP..

Go get someone to explain a hybrid DFR to you and then come back. Don't bother asking the USAPA guy who helped you write this posting, he's clueless too.

USAPA believed it had a LUP to abandon the Nic-prescriptive 2005 TA for a ratification vote opportunity on the 2013 MOU that is seniority neutral

I know you are having buyers remorse with the MOU. It triggered the Nic, it became a contract (you all thought you'd get another vote), and once the TA goes away you are left in a no-mans-land while you sort out seniority without any of the TA protections you had to downsizing and still under the self-created injunction with no self-help provision. If you choose to drag out the SLI by focusing on how you can continue bullying the west, you may wish some of those protections had been negotiated in.

Judge Silver was very clear... USAPA and the Company could negotiate any seniority regime they wished and they were negotiating for an entirely new contract than the 2005 TA. They had every right to change it. They did. It was ratified.

The latitude to negotiate was not a gift, but a responsibility that demanded the west not be further disadvantaged by the result. So far USAPA hasn't figured out how to do that. And the 9th referred to negotiations between USAPA and US, not between USAPA and some guys from the west. A class of pilots is not the same as a union (I chuckle at the irony too) and has no legal standing. The burden is on USAPA to negotiate against itself (Wye River III, if you will) and they must abandon DOH in their constitution to do so. Hate to break it to you skipp, but that's the fact.

How much does feeling better cost?

An angry F/O is asking that question LOL!

This post has all the fingerprints of McKee on it. You need to watch who you take advice from.

Oops, a little late for that, isn't it.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Gee CRZI, alot of posting there just to say that USAPA has been ordered to negotiate against themselves. Any compromise they make brings them closer to the NIC and defies their so-called constitution. The AOL lawyers aren't actually negotiating anything. USAPA will be forced to continue to whittle away at DOH until the AOL plaintiffs are satisfied enough to abandon the case.

Guess where that will be

 

[Crzipilot]

No, what I want is for every east pilot to pay the west pilots every penny they were entitled to for denied advancement. What should happen is that Silver will order that USAPA use the Nic for it's negotiations with APA and she will place sufficient safeguards to make sure it is not neglected.

Your sounding like some people who were against the MOU stating they expect to be repaid every last dime of the lost pension, plus interest.

Every party in this case agrees that the trigger has been met. While the MOU on it's face is neutral with respect to seniority, it triggers requirements in the TA. It is imperitive that the SLI from the AWA/US merger be completed prior to the M-B arbitration board combining AMR/US. The Nicolau is the only accepted list that complies with the TA requirements. That is not to say that the Board of Slime can't go in and change the TA, but they haven't and for good reason: it is a DFR land mine.

The latitude to negotiate was not a gift, but a responsibility that demanded the west not be further disadvantaged by the result. So far USAPA hasn't figured out how to do that. And the 9th referred to negotiations between USAPA and US, not between USAPA and some guys from the west. A class of pilots is not the same as a union (I chuckle at the irony too) and has no legal standing. The burden is on USAPA to negotiate against itself (Wye River III, if you will) and they must abandon DOH in their constitution to do so. Hate to break it to you skipp, but that's the fact.

Again read above, seems that's not what Silver thinks......I guess you need to call her and let her know how wrong she is...

 

[Crzipilot]

Gee CRZI, alot of posting there just to say that USAPA has been ordered to negotiate against themselves. Any compromise they make brings them closer to the NIC and defies their so-called constitution. The AOL lawyers aren't actually negotiating anything. USAPA will be forced to continue to whittle away at DOH until the AOL plaintiffs are satisfied enough to abandon the case.

Guess where that will be

Again, WOW bird, how do you get that out of the transcripts? Go ahead and sit there and not move off the NIC, roll the dice and see what Silver decides to do to you and the West lawyer. I have a feeling if it comes back to her that USAPA and company sat down, and tried to put alternatives on the table, and all the West said was no, no, no, Nic only, she will not be too happy.

With your comments I have a feeling your life is going to be a long dreary affair after all this is over......Will you ever come out of the denial phase?

 

[TWA Dude]

Crzipilot:

I know I've said several times but you're still stuck in the same rut. Silver hasn't ordered any negotiations and if she did everyone knows it'll come to naught. Suffice it to say that even on the Westie message board there's a lot of disagreement over the meaning of her comments. So until she issues a written order we really can't be sure what she's thinking.

She's read all the written briefs so the hearing is her chance to get non-canned answers. To that end judges often employ strategies such as using hypotheticals, playing devil's advocate, or anything to throw lawyers off guard. In doing so it can appear that they're favoring one party but you simply cannot make that assumption. You're hanging on the words of her questions as if she's issues orders. Lawyers know better than to be so presumptuous.

 

[Crzipilot]

I will agree that there isn't a written order, though for some reason she thought there was. She seems to be leading the horses to the water, without coming out directly and saying it. Obviously from her comments she is hinting VERY strongly the NIC does not have to be used, she is also saying STRAIGHT DOH may or may not be fair. On those aspects she told Marty to stop being stiff legged and sit down and figure something out. If his legs don't bend, I believe she will make them bend at the next hearings.

Again, is Marty going to bend at the knees or has the west pilots tied his hands at the point that he can't bend? And a judge will have to force him to?


Oh and TWA, do you have JD? or any other experience which would make you a prominent knowledge of how the courts and judges operate? Or is this just pass through from your legal team etc?

 

[TWA Dude]

Oh and TWA, do you have JD? or any other experience which would make you a prominent knowledge of how the courts and judges operate? Or is this just pass through from your legal team etc?

I do not have a JD and I am indeed paraphrasing what legal types are saying. My old man is a trial lawyer too and we discuss.

In any case, you're still reading a lot into Silver's comments that have yet to be substantiated. Best wait and see what she orders.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well now that's the first common sense thing I've heard out of the west side yet. It gets a little old hearing repeatedly, NIC is gonna be shoved up your a.. and yet....there has yet to be a basis of it......

Now whether or not she's right or even has the power to do so, or if she even understands the position, she seems to be prodding all to to sit down and come up with something agreeable to both sides and move on.

Back a few pages, I asked, what's agreeable to the west? all I've seen is NIC or nothing..