AMR also believes that the west pilots case is ripe!

[Bringupthebird]

Only problem I see with a 3 way, is it's ability to stand up in court.

Really, that's all? How about the fact that you handed these goons the Section 19 keys to ruin folks careers if they don't submit to extortion and then fail to represent them.

How about the fact that no one has elected any West representatives?

How about the money that AWA paid for the arbitrated award? Bygones? Hardly!

Sorry, you can't slime your way to victory, you gotta do it the old fashioned way - earn it!

 

[Crzipilot]

Name goes way back to my freight dog days. No biggie

I think if you read through all the talk between Usapa lawyer and silver. He explained. The west told him to pound sand and that's where those comments came from. He stated they were willing to sit down and discuss and consider (which is about all silver can order at this point. All of the west rhetoric that the mic was going to be shoved up our rears looks to have been just that. Rhetoric. Those dreams I think got squashe by silver.

What happens next is anyone's guess. The west cry that there is no one to negotiate for th or represent them. Is a little laughable. If you guys have the resources and organization to continue the lawsuits an let AOL talk for you, You can have them talk for you regarding this.

So goin along Silvers orders. Are you going to tell AOL to stand firm on the NIC or are you willing to compromise as the court has suggested?

 

[Crzipilot]

BUTB

All good questions. Section 19 I believe are the requirements to be current in dues? I guess ALPo never enforced that. And guys got butt hurt being told Tru ha to join and pay or at least pay the service fee?! I see no problem with that being enforced.

No elected west reps? You mean like phx bpr members or what?

The rest. Well not sure how that is germain to what is occurring in silvers court room.

So what compromise is acceptable to you, hbe you talked to your aol guys to tell them to hold firm on the NIC or nothing?!?

 

[TWA Dude]

I like what happened in Silver's courtroom. While the West is entitled to the Nicolau list (and I still hope that comes to pass) if Silver declines to enforce it and instead makes the West a party to a 3-way I think the West comes out ahead in the end.

The arbitration panel would start with the Nic list and adjust for the following:

-- the East gains far more from the merger than the West (pay and benefits)
-- the East has enjoyed ill-gotten seniority progression since 2007 while the West stagnated
-- the East has benefited from the TA "IOU"s on new equipment (757/190) staffing

So the East would actually be better off accepting the Nic list now and avoiding a 3-way. My guess is they'll once again shoot off their nose to spite their face.

 

[Crzipilot]

I don't think the Nic list would be anywhere near a 3 way, I'm sure that makes you guys happy and easier to swallow what you heard tues. But I have a feeling it would be more like The APA DOH list. The East DOH list and the West DOH list. Take those three lists and shuffle them into each other. Now that process would probably make a list that is close to what the original NIC list should have looked like.

If you read the transcripts. Every time Marty tried to go back to what happened 5 years ago, Silver said she wasn't interested, she kept saying, we are looking forward here, what is in the past doesn't matter.

Just my opinion though.

Again are you guys telling AOL to stand firm on the NIC??? Or have you come to something you'd be willing to accept, like Silver told you to?

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't think the Nic list would be anywhere near a 3 way,

Do you understand what is meant by "3-way"? It means the West pilots would have our own representation before the arbitration panel. If that happens we'll hand over the Nicolau List and start from there. The more important thing you'd have to decide is whether three arbitrators who've worked alongside and indeed been mentored by George Nicolau will choose to ignore his work. Do you feel lucky?

Again are you guys telling AOL to stand firm on the NIC???

We don't need to.
And BTW, we're not in control of the AOL lawyers. Of course, if we disagreed with them we would just withhold funding. You can always hope for that.

Or have you come to something you'd be willing to accept, like Silver told you to?

Might wanna re-read that transcript. Scratch that, just believe what ever the USAPA update tells you.

 

[Crzipilot]

So now you say the AOL lawyers are doing all of this on their own accord. No direction or input from the west pilots? They have taken up this case Pro Bono and coming up with their own ideas as to the direction to take the West pilots? Interesting.

I may be paraphrasing here, but I believe in your own update, it states the Judge strongly encourages the parties to sit down and come up with something other than what their positions have been?!? Or did the lawyers write that without any consideration of what the west pilots think?


So all mighty one. Tell me how a 3 way works. APA comes to table with their list. USAPA comes to table with their list (probably the East seniority list) and AOL comes to the table with the NIC. Everyone looks at it and says, Uhmmm...why is the AOL list about 3k pilots fat? Oh well you see this is the list that was supposed to be in effect if the east and west ever voted on a JCBA. It never got memorilized in section 22 so we've never used this list. But this is the list we want to start with. Oh ok, well how 'bout giving us the west seniority list and we'll start from there.......

I guess it couldn't work out that way huh? I guess you figure by showing up with the NIC award, you can effectively shoulder out what USAPA puts on the table? Do you feel lucky?

So your telling me that Nicolau is the grand poohbah of arbitrators and everyone looks at him and his decisions as being altruistic and never problematic? His word is written in stone, and other arbitrators will be struck down if they even so much as question any of his decisions (wasn't he fired from baseball arbitration for some reason?) I don't know as I don't run in those circles...

 

[Crzipilot]

Might wanna re-read that transcript. Scratch that, just believe what ever the USAPA update tells you.

Only update I saw was that docs had been posted.....so just pulling this out of the air.......about the same as you...

Since you guys have no control over your lawyers and all.....

 

[Bringupthebird]

So what compromise is acceptable to you, hbe you talked to your aol guys to tell them to hold firm on the NIC or nothing?!?

Explain how USAPA gets around the threat of the east pilots petitioning for an injunction if DOH is not used. Any compromise has to begin with DOH being struck from the USAPA constitution (probably easier than it sounds). That takes the first bullet out of the chamber.

The TA specifies that once a Single Agreement has been negotiated that the pilots will be integrated in accordance with the negotiated seniority list. Now if USAPA didn't like that, they could have tried to modify the TA, but they didn't. If the MOU is that Single Agreement (which the judge appears to be warming up to) and that MOU specifies that the TA goes away at the POR, then the case is ripe now for injunctive relief.

I think the motivation for fighting the west should be ebbing away since the integration with APA could make the NIC look like a bargain. If USAPA accepts the Nic and submits it to M-B for integration into the combined New American list, those who have smashed-and-grabbed their positions thus far will retain them under no bump no flush and Addington I and II are defused. No one will likely operate under the Nic list for more than a very short time (as opposed to USAPA's 7 year land grab) since the New American list will eclipse it. Those USAPA sows are going to lose their trough as soon as APA takes over, so their acquiescence to the Nic jeopardizes only their reputation among other east pilots, and let's be honest, how much is that really worth?

 

[TWA Dude]

So now you say the AOL lawyers are doing all of this on their own accord. No direction or input from the west pilots?

Sorry this is news to you but a little research can save you more embarrassment. Please visit http://www.cactuspilot.com/ to see who AOL is. I'll even be especially helpful and tip you off to the tab on the left which reads "About Us".

I may be paraphrasing here, but I believe in your own update, it states the Judge strongly encourages the parties to sit down and come up with something other than what their positions have been?!?

This was a hearing, not a trial. The only order issued was to submit more briefs. The content of those briefs won't be a surprise to anybody.

I guess it couldn't work out that way huh? I guess you figure by showing up with the NIC award, you can effectively shoulder out what USAPA puts on the table? Do you feel lucky?

Yes, but it won't be luck. It's what's right.

His word is written in stone, and other arbitrators will be struck down if they even so much as question any of his decisions (wasn't he fired from baseball arbitration for some reason?) I don't know as I don't run in those circles...

If you like you can research how often an RLA arbitrator redoes another arbitrator's work. Surely you wouldn't presume it happens all the time? In any case, as stated before, you'd be better off WITH the Nic in a three way. My guess if the arbitration panel tossed the Nic it would be for something less onerous to the West.

Only update I saw was that docs had been posted.....so just pulling this out of the air.......about the same as you...

Don't worry, USAPA the spin machine will air their victory update soon enough.
My favorite bit of USAPA spin is the idea the the West voting 98% for the MOU indicates a willingness to abandon the Nic. Got news for you: 98% voted for the MOU because the AOL lawyers recommended we do so. I'll leave it to you to figure out why.