American Decapitated.

[sqwkvfr]

Who said that? A reference please.

"I heard someone - and I would not be in a position to say who it was, but a Democrat staffer - saying, 'Aha, this is the silver bullet we've been waiting for,'"
-Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla

 

[Ty Webb]

Back to the topic- the atrocious act that sparked this whole debate-

With apologies to the family of Mr. Berg, I think that the video should be required viewing for people like 350Driver who were on this board just a few weeks ago saying how there is no difference between Palestinian terrorist acts against civilians, and the Israeli army's attempts to prevent those acts.

That type of nonsense is spewed by people who have little to no understanding of these Muslim fanatics. The Israelis have been dealing with these people for the last 50 years, and with a huge amount of restraint, I might add.

I can only compare this to the way that the media has made such a huge issue over the acts of a few idiots at the prison humiliating Iraquis, yet make little to no mention of the same Iraquis dragging burned corpses of our soldiers through the streets only a few days prior. . . .

And where is the "moderate" Muslim community when this this type of stuff happens? Their silence is deafening.

 

[Blue Dude]

Who said that? A reference please.

More here.

 

[Singlecoil]

Wow that is amazing. A Republican heard some low level staffer make a comment. Did he hear this in the john? It doesn't matter. This must be a reflection of official Democratic Party policy if he heard it from someone who he refuses to name, but he admits is not an elected official. Give me and the rest of the American people a break.

I heard on flightinfo.com that the Republicans want to nuke Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

 

[Timebuilder]

Low level staffer...

Sometimes, the people you and I might regard as being minor functionaries actually have a great deal of access to information.

This must be a reflection of official Democratic Party policy if he heard it from someone who he refuses to name, but he admits is not an elected official. Give me and the rest of the American people a break.

What it may mean is this: a professional politician will probably know enough to not let out some damaging information about how he plans to use an event against his opposition. That same person's staff member, not as experienced or schooled in this technique may not have that same presence of mind.

Does this pass the smell test, in other words, does the opinion expressed support the normal manner of conduct we can expect, ie, do or say anything to obtain power? Yes.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Wow that is amazing. A Republican heard some low level staffer make a comment. Did he hear this in the john? It doesn't matter. This must be a reflection of official Democratic Party policy if he heard it from someone who he refuses to name, but he admits is not an elected official. Give me and the rest of the American people a break.

I heard on flightinfo.com that the Republicans want to nuke Iraq and Saudi Arabia.

After the Senate Intellegence Committee memo snafu, I'm more than willing to believe this. Like TB said, Democrats will do whatever it takes to get "their" White house back.

This is also remeniscent of the John Kerry "foriegn leaders" comment....but I'm sure most Democrats are more than willing to accept that what he said is the truth...despite him not being able to name them.

 

[jarhead]

Yes, Unlike the Republicans, who will NOT do anything to keep the White House occupied by the incumbent.

Wake up....its politics and politicians. There is no honor among any of them. Thieves and liars to the last soul. ALL parties included.

 

[AV80R]

American Decapitated

“WHY THE **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** ARE YOU PEOPLE DOWNLOADING AND WATCHING THAT? THATS **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**DISGUSTING.” Lrjtcaptain”

-- Well, personally I believe many people have already forgotten why we are fighting this war. I think that by watching it we can remind ourselves why we are there to begin with. I know I did. Our choices imho are: we fight the war on their turf or they come to us.

-- I do not believe all Muslims are bad people, but I am disgusted with how silent “the good ones” are. You’d think at least all the American Muslims would get together and start protesting, they could maybe have huge demonstrations against terrorism, suicide bombings, hijackings, female "honor killings," etc, etc... sort of like a “Million Muslim” march or something. But all we ever hear from them is: Islam is a peaceful religion. Well, if it really is I must say it is concealed really well. .

-- Here is just an observation: Year 2004 I believe equals year 1425 in the Muslim calendar. (their calendar starts when Muhammed fled from Mecca to Medina I believe, I might be wrong?) That mean they are almost “600” years behind us. So “technically” you might say they live in the “crusade-era” right now. Sadly, I think that’s sort of what the Christians tried to do some 600 years ago, convert by force, or else… Might be a bad comparison but it almost appears to me they are trying to repeat our mistakes?

“Frankly, what was seen in that video is the lowest low of anything even distantly related to humankind. NO, it could NOT have been worse. Different, perhaps. Worse, no.
TonyC”

-- Totally agree


-- Here is another link for those who would like to see the video of Nicholas Berg’s murder, as well as Daniel Pearl’s execution, and even some pictures from 9/11 (people jumping from WTC to their deaths).


http://www.military-secrets.com


-- All those pictures and video clips are extremely disgusting, they are horrible. You will probably get sick to your stomach and you might even cry some (I did).

-- But I think that if we forget why we are fighting this war, we might not be able to prevail. --

So to anser your question "Lrjtcaptain" - I watch it not to EVER forget!

“Did you watch the video? If so does it make you mad to see it, and if it does make you mad are you mad at the cowards that did this to him, or the few soldiers who supposedly brought this on by humiliating the iraqi prisioners?
Flyifrvfr”

-- Please tell me you are joking! The American soldiers did NOT bring this on, the bastards who killed Berg did!!! A few rotten eggs in the US military cannot spoil the great job the 99.999% of the US and coalition forces do. Just look at Najaf and Falujah, if it wasn’t for the fact the American forces were desperately trying to avoid civilian casualties, while being constantly shot at may I add, those places would be history by now. “Humiliating the Iraqi prisoners” as opposed to cutting ones head off??? Can’t believe you even made the comparison.

Ps. Sorry about all the colors and different fonts. Fairly new to this, wanted to test it out

 

[f18pugsley]

Funny how this kind of news does not make headlines. Maybe because it does not meet the media's anti-American apologetic view of the world.

Pugsley

Deseret Morning News, Sunday, May 09, 2004

To Iraqis, prisoner abuse story is largely a non-issue

By Robert C. Gross


It is Friday, May 7, 2004, the Muslim "weekend."


And the news here is apparently much different than there. From my early morning looks at the news channels, it looks like the "prisoner story" is dominating the national news. It appears to us to be taking on all the signs of an overreaction to a very negative and unfortunate incident.


It's amazing to us that people are calling for Rumsfeld's resignation or firing. Interestingly, it's mostly a non-event for most of the Iraqis with whom we work or meet. A typical reaction came from one of our key staff I'll call Abdul. He has a degree in English literature, is in his mid-30s, served in the Iraqi Army during the Iraq-Iran War, has a side business in women's cosmetics, and works with us in the coordination of several of our social institutions. He is somewhat typical of the many more educated Iraqis.


When I questioned him about how most Iraqis view the prisoner abuse story, his first reaction was a startled stare. He didn't really even connect with my question. When I explained more fully, he said, "Well, actually, sir, to be quite honest with you, we think that it represents a small dot on a large piece of paper. We know that the hearts of almost all Americans are good and they do so much good for our people. And remember, sir, we lived under Saddam for nearly 30 years. To be quite honest with you, sir, we believe that the media is not fair and has not been fair for this entire war. After all, we Iraqis watch every despicable act committed by terrorists as they are glorified by Al Jazeera."


Nearly all our translators and Iraqi staff indicate basically the same thing. Many Iraqis, even those who have televisions and watch Al Jazeera, are mostly nonplussed by the prisoner story.


I do not mean to excuse or justify these acts in any way. It is an obvious black eye and tarnishes all that we're attempting to do here. The overwhelming consensus among the military working here in the Palace is abhorrence and an attitude that the enlisted personnel and their commanders ought to be dealt with appropriately and severely after a full investigation. Most are concerned that this is further tarnishing unfairly the military image back in the states, painting broad strokes across the entire canvas. I can tell you from my own experience that, for the most part, this is the best trained and dedicated group of people who could ever possibly serve the United States.


But Abdul is right. We just wish this could be kept in proper perspective. What we are thinking about often doesn't make the news. Many of you, I know, are interested in what we're doing in Fallujah and Najaf, Sadr's current headquarters. In Fallujah, it's not a matter of if, but when we eventually go in. We currently are working with an Iraqi general who is standing up an all Iraqi force to patrol the city. We hope to neutralize the opposition as much as possible, thereby preventing collateral damage. Eventually, however, it will be necessary for the Marines to regain control over the city.


The same can be said for Najaf but for slightly different reasons. The Ayatollah Sistani has made it clear that he does not want to see Coalition Forces enter the city, one of Shi'as holiest sites. As each day passes, however, Sadr appears palpably to lose followers and influence. He is still a danger, however, and poses a threat. Yesterday, some of his militia attacked one of our coalition convoys close to Najaf: the score was 40 to 0 in favor of the coalition. He's probably gradually and painfully "getting it." Leadership sometimes requires great patience.


This is one of those times.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Robert C. Gross, a Utahn, is a senior adviser of Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs for the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

© 2004 Deseret News Publishing Company

 

[jarhead]

That story is pure BS. Every responsible news agency and governmental agency, and the administration itself reports that this has enraged the people in Iraq. Then you post such anectotal drivel as to deny the reality. It's out there (reality), join it; the truth shall set you free.

 

[Typhoon1244]

You've got to be kidding me...some of you Democrats and Republicans are still squabbling!

Go back and watch the video again. Look carefully. You just might notice this isn't about political parties.

George Bush can't handle this. John Kerry won't be able to handle this. We're screwed as long as we have leadership in Washington who believes that Iraqis (etc.) think the same ways about the same things that Americans do.

You don't have to have a degree in sociology to see that they clearly don't. "Freedom?" "Hearts and minds?" Screw that...get the hell out and let them all focus on killing each other.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Excerpt from an Iraqi writing about the Abu Ghraib prison abuse story:

"Why [are] the Iraqi people not really upset with this issue?
Is it because of the firm and rapid response from the American officials to these terrible actions?

Or is it because the Iraqi people lack compassion with the majority of these prisoners?

Could it be that the Iraqi people and as a result of decades of torture, humiliation and executions, took these crimes less seriously than the rest of the world?

Or have the majority of Iraqis finally developed some trust in the Coalition authorities and in the American army, to sense that these actions must be isolated and will be punished?

I can’t say I have the full answer but I guess it’s a combination of a little bit of all the above."

 

[Pilot124]

That story is pure BS. Every responsible news agency and governmental agency, and the administration itself reports that this has enraged the people in Iraq. Then you post such anectotal drivel as to deny the reality. It's out there (reality), join it; the truth shall set you free.

Jarhead, With all I have read you act like a middle east expert or something. Where do YOU get all your information from? Lot of people back up what they say with quotes etc..You just shoot from the hip. Back up your sources instead of throwing your extreme opinions around. I respect the fact that you have an opinion but don't call someones story BS when it's from a credible source. Show us actual sources that say this has enraged the Iraqi people and you will gain credability. In the meantime stop speaking for the Iraqi's.

 

[jarhead]

Pilot124

I get this "stuff" from all the leading broadcast networks. It's really hard for me to put an audio soundbite from the radio and TV on this forum. I see people interviewed. From Government officials, to people on the street, to the white house press secretary, from the generals on TV. And no, I am not an "expert" on the middle east. I use my common sense to debunk anecdotal stories that fly in the face of the mainstream electronic media.

If you want to know my "sources" I wil tell you that are FOX, MSNBC, CNN, Headine News. There....link to them!

 

[jarhead]

Pilot124

Here is a source in print for you to refer to. It states everything I have been saying for months. You know…..all that “librul” stuff. But wait, something must be wrong here (sarcasm) It’s coming from a conservative publication. “How can that possibly be”, he pondered. Maybe, it’s because it’s the truth.

http://www.amconmag.com/2004_05_10/cover.html

 

[Timebuilder]

This is funny.

Bear with me here.

Just how does a magazine get to be representative of Conservative ideas in your mind? The title? In fairness, I could come out with a magazine and call it The American Liberal. Would that make my magazine an authentic source of liberal ideas?

This sounds like Pat Buchannan's friends. He is welcome to his opinion, as is this magazine, and you, too.

Even so, I wouldn't make the mistake of seeing the magazine title and jumping to the conclusion that these ideas are widely held among conservatives, or even valuable as policy ideas.

 

[Timebuilder]

Yes, Unlike the Republicans, who will NOT do anything to keep the White House occupied by the incumbent.

Wake up....its politics and politicians. There is no honor among any of them. Thieves and liars to the last soul. ALL parties included.

As I read this I was reminded of this quote:

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

When people become as cynical as your post above, they tend to let others take the time to pay attention and care about the issues.

That's a big mistake.

 

[Timebuilder]

You've got to be kidding me...some of you Democrats and Republicans are still squabbling!

Go back and watch the video again. Look carefully. You just might notice this isn't about political parties.

George Bush can't handle this. John Kerry won't be able to handle this. We're screwed as long as we have leadership in Washington who believes that Iraqis (etc.) think the same ways about the same things that Americans do.

You don't have to have a degree in sociology to see that they clearly don't. "Freedom?" "Hearts and minds?" Screw that...get the hell out and let them all focus on killing each other.

See the quote in the post above.

 

[jarhead]

Timebuilder

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that the "conservative" label use for a magazine that says it's conservative, really is not, as you suggest. Let’s call it a "liberal" publication masquerading as a conservative publication for the sake of discussion.

Does that in any way, change the gist of the message? Where is the article flawed, irrespective of its left or right leaning?

 

[ThomasR]

Am. Decap.

AV8OR,

The "good ones" you refer to in Iraq are what is termed "silent majority" here in the U.S.
__________________

TonyC ............ Islam, on the other hand, denies the deity of God the Son, claiming that he was just another prophet. [B}Now, unless you can develop a significantly more flexible version of logic to explain the contrast, you will have to agree that these two views are incompatible.[/B] Either Jesus was God, as Christians claim, or he was not God, as Muslims claim. It cannot be both. Consequently, the two religions cannot exist in harmony.

That's not to say that two people of the different faiths cannot exist harmoniously - - people of varying beliefs do just that every day - - it's the two RELIGIONS that are incompatible. s.o.sJTB's post would have you believe the Muslim FAITH accepts Jews and Christians as peaceful monotheists. That simply is not the case.

TonyC,

You have far more experience in the middle east than I could ever hope to obtain and I hope you will continue to offer your expiences to define and redefine some of the many directions this post takes in muddling through current events.

I, like most Americans, have limited knowledge of the Qur'an or how people of the Islamic faith interprite its meanings. However, people talking about nukes, isolationism and hatred toward Islam seem premature given the speed this war is advancing toward completion.

At some point Jewish, Christian and Muslem people will have to coexist and it will have to be through a blending of faith. So I must take issue with the notion that "they can not exist in harmony" or any path that leads to this conclusion.

It makes little difference in my mind if one is a corporation [a messiah] or one represents a corporation. [messenger]. The lesson in human affairs is pretty close to the same in any case; and the words come from God in either case.

 

[Timebuilder]

Re: Timebuilder

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that the "conservative" label use for a magazine that says it's conservative, really is not, as you suggest. Let’s call it a "liberal" publication masquerading as a conservative publication for the sake of discussion.

Does that in any way, change the gist of the message? Where is the article flawed, irrespective of its left or right leaning?

Well, let's look at the first paragraph:

The administration’s Iraq policy is in shambles. Iraq has become a geopolitical humpty-dumpty that America cannot put back together, and the time has come for the United States to withdraw.

I can't say that I agree with that, or any other part of the article, no matter who says it. It's long on opinion and short on facts. I can't believe there are people who would think of themselves as conservatives who agree with this opinion. Well, there IS Pat Buchannan.

TB's post would have you believe the Muslim FAITH accepts Jews and Christians as peaceful monotheists. That simply is not the case.

Wow. When did I say that Muslims "accept" Christians and Jews? Many Muslims (mostly in the US) are moderates and don't express an active dislike of Christians and Jews, but I wouldn't expect anything close to "acceptance" as I understand it outside of the US.

 

[Timebuilder]

At some point Jewish, Christian and Muslem people will have to coexist and it will have to be through a blending of faith. So I must take issue with the notion that "they can not exist in harmony" or any path that leads to this conclusion.

I have to tell you the Bible disagrees.

It warns against false teaching, and describes itself, through the God-inspired writers, to be the only true Word of God.

It does not suggest that there are several, nor even a second path to God.

So I must take issue with the notion that "they can not exist in harmony" or any path that leads to this conclusion.

The Bible describes a point in our future, and many believe that this point is not very far off, when God settles any dispute over His Word, His deity, or His sovereignty. He settles it by force, defeating the evil that has had a time to be in charge of the earth.

It makes little difference in my mind if one is a corporation [a messiah] or one represents a corporation. [messenger]. The lesson in human affairs is pretty close to the same in any case; and the words come from God in either case.

This is a form of an "ecumenical" viewpoint. It is unsupported by scripture. It is a nice thought, a Brady Bunch, Coca Cola, 'I'd like to teach the world to sing' kind of thought, but according to the Bible, it simply is not the case.

We like to put God in our own context, imagining Him reacting to situations just as we would want Him to, using our own human ideas about His nature and His personality as the basis for those expectations. Don't be mislead. There is little of God in the attitude of sinful Man, and none of sinful Man in God.

The only way to know the character and personality of God is to read His Word. In the prophecy He has revealed in both the old and new testaments, much of which has already come true, we are shown what He wants us to know about what is to come.

According to the Bible, "blending" is not on the agenda.

 

[jarhead]

Timebuilder

Do you believe in the collective wisdom of the American electorate? Would you change the rules of how our government officials are elected? Do you think that they must pass some sort of biblical belief muster, before they can be allowed to hold an office that the eligible voters chose? I ask these rhetorical questions, only because there is something quite profound happening in America right now that is quite perplexing, and it may not be to your liking.

Senator John Kerry, who really doesn’t show any star quality at all, and is in fact (IMHO) a really poor selection as a candidate for the highest office in the land. The Democratic Party could have done so much better than what they did. Yet, in repeated economic news, the economy is coming back. Kerry has had nothing to do with that.

Yet, despite of the fact that Kerry is really doing nothing, not really speaking out much about Iraq, and he continues to rise in the polls. Maybe it’s not so much that he is rising, as it is that GWB is losing support. That says to me, it’s all about the Iraq situation. A gallop poll just released today (Saturday) said that if the election were held today, among likely voters, Bush would lose to Kerry by 5 percentage points. That’s a further slide from last week. Mr. Bush is in tough shape over this mess he’s created in Iraq, and Americans are starting to see this as the editorial this thread is about has asserted. More and more Americans want this to end, and they don’t think Bush is the way to stop the madness. I see this slide to continue, and I believe at this point, that 43 will follow in 41’s footsteps; a single term for the both of them.

Is this proof? No, it’s just my opinion, but it’s the only one I’m entitled to give.

 

[Timebuilder]

Hey, at least you have a viewpoint. It's different from mine, but that's America.

I'm not worried about what polls say in May. By November, we will have a second term, we will likely be out of Iraq to a large degree, and the Iraqis will be running their country with a little help from us, perhaps training out of the country on a shuffling basis. Fuel prices will have come down, like they do after EVERY labor day (no plot for the conspiracy buffs) and we will be facing our latest threat from nuts who want to kill us, and maybe talking about another terror attack.

It's a crazy world.

 

[jarhead]

T.B.
I enjoy debating certain points with you. You tend to keep it civil and respectful. I am on your side of some issues, and on the opposite side of other issues. And, like you say, that’s America, and what’s so good about it.

If the November scenario you portray turns out to be accurate, that would be great for all of America. And, if your forecast and its attendant realities take place, I will salute your view as being one that was more accurate than mine, and I’ll eat my appropriate serving of crow, and let everyone see me eat that bit of scavenger fowl.

At this time however, six months before the polls open, I plan to vote to replace the incumbent in the White House.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

This may seem to be an odd question/comment but I am "surprised" they returned Berg's body. Since he was a despised American who happened to be Jewish and these murderers are no respecter of persons. Anyone have a logical explanation?

 

[jarhead]

Not certain "They" returned the body. I recall a news account that his decapitated body was found on the shoulder of a highway, on a bridge. It had just been dumped there. Forensics determined the identity.(fingerprints)

 

[Dizel8]

TB,

This is what worries me. Here we are, you are a smart, intelligent and quite logical person, who belives strongly in HIM. Great, whatever your belief, although my opinion difers dramatically, it is one your are entitled to and I can repspect that.

The problems becomes, that many Muslims, belives even more strongly than you and they do not portray the logical reasoning that you do, nor a lot of restraint. They will gladly kill if it furthers their cause, seems to be no lack of suicide bombers or calls for jihad. For some odd reason, I just do not see you tying a bomb to your chest and going into a mosque to blow up Muslims.

While I continue to support our troops, honestly, I do not think, the goals we have for Iraq will ever be met. I do not believe we will see a democratic goverment, that is other than a puppet regime nor do I think terrorism will cease to be.

The question then becomes, once we realize that our goals in Iraq is out of reach, how do we disengage?

 

[TonyC]

Re: Re: Timebuilder

TB's post would have you believe the Muslim FAITH accepts Jews and Christians as peaceful monotheists. That simply is not the case.

Wow. When did I say that Muslims "accept" Christians and Jews? Many Muslims (mostly in the US) are moderates and don't express an active dislike of Christians and Jews, but I wouldn't expect anything close to "acceptance" as I understand it outside of the US.

Timebuilder, I believe you read that too quickly. I was referring to s.o.sJTB's post, not yours.

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks for the hand, Tony.

I have been getting up early and heading to audtions and workshops in Manhattan during the week, and real estate license classes on the weekend. I see "TB" and I think someone means me. Oops.

The problems becomes, that many Muslims, belives even more strongly than you and they do not portray the logical reasoning that you do, nor a lot of restraint. They will gladly kill if it furthers their cause, seems to be no lack of suicide bombers or calls for jihad. For some odd reason, I just do not see you tying a bomb to your chest and going into a mosque to blow up Muslims.

Nor would I have a need to do so.

The problem with these radicals is that they are following a false doctrine (see MAF thread). While we will never turn Iraq into New Jersey (who would want that???) we will create an opportunity for the Iraqis to form and foster their own, "unique" form of self government, one that may prove popular to other arabs in other countries.

The importance of what we ARE able to accomplish cannot be under estimated.