American and Delta drop the ASAP program

[DX Jake]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28073242/

 

[pb4ufly]

The DAL "suspension" of ASAP is old news.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

DL hasnt had ASAP for over 2 years...

 

[NuGuy]

NWAs ASAP and FOQA programs are still in place, with no plans to discontinue them.

Nu

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

From the ATA

Pressured by unions, three airlines drop voluntary safety program
Safety advocates are criticizing the waning of the Aviation Safety Action Program, an initiative designed to help carriers and government regulators identify potential safety hazards by allowing pilots to report their own mistakes without fear of punishment. The voluntary program has been shown to help lower accident rates, but American Airlines, Delta Air Lines and Comair have all dropped out of the program following disagreements with their unions, which accused the companies of unfairly punishing pilots. "The relevant players need to do whatever is necessary to ensure that these programs remain active and vital safety tools," says National Transportation Safety Board member Robert Sumwalt.
USA TODAY(12/4)



https://www.smartbrief.com/subscrib...id=AB09C9C7-6957-4C98-9A56-BCF1F40F05FE&style=

 

[luckytohaveajob]

So you all think the ASAP program is anonymous?

Anonymous my butt. The companies might "de-identify" the reports, but when they need the info on a specific incidence they crack the case.

Lets see, we, the company, need the info on flight #xxxx on date xx/xx/xx which was involved in xx type of problem. Bingo, out spits, the entire story and then the hanging begins. The C.P. reads the report and says, now I know the idiot responsible after checking the monthly schedule and that days trips and says, I think we are going to have to check that pilots manual revisions and see if he needs two weeks off without pay.

File away at your own risk, it no jeopardy until your caught.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The gate keeper on all ASAP programs is a company paid employee.

Company paid. Enough said.

 

[PCL_128]

Not exactly how it works. At least not if you've got a decent ASAP MOU in your contract.

 

[densoo]

Acting FAA chief Robert A. Sturgell said in a speech last month that voluntary disclosure programs such as ASAP are critical for improving safety.
"It is disheartening to see some of our carriers and pilot unions abandoning these programs at a time when we need them the most," Sturgell said. "I encourage you to separate safety from the labor issues and put these programs back in place."

I would think that if the FAA wanted it to continue, they could mandate that a company must allow it remain as it is now. They mandate enough other things, so why not this.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Not exactly how it works. At least not if you've got a decent ASAP MOU in your contract.

Yea, companies never violate contracts. NOT!

I remember years ago, when a new aircraft design came out and there were a number of switches on the overhead panel with the same shape and style.

A pilot accidentally shut an engine down.

The company downloaded the aircraft's new style data and then read the accompanying ASAP report. The company knew exactly what happened.

Then the information with the pilots identify floated around the crew room and everyone else knew without ever reading a "de-identified" report.

 

[Truckdriver]

The gate keeper on all ASAP programs is a company paid employee.

Company paid. Enough said.

Not the case. I know of a couple companies who have an ALPA appointed person who is the gatekeeper.

If you have a company that is smart enough to see the benefit of a truly anonymous ASAP program, it is a great program. Obviously Delta and American are not that smart so they will never really know what is going on with their airplanes and crews. Lots of money could be saved if they wanted to identify trends and fix some issues instead of using the program as a disciplinary tool. The program won't let those who really need disicpline to slip through if it is managed the way it should be. They are both very stupid to not let this program run the way it was designed to run at their companies.

 

[Superpilot92]

Not the case. I know of a couple companies who have an ALPA appointed person who is the gatekeeper.

If you have a company that is smart enough to see the benefit of a truly anonymous ASAP program, it is a great program. Obviously Delta and American are not that smart so they will never really know what is going on with their airplanes and crews. Lots of money could be saved if they wanted to identify trends and fix some issues instead of using the program as a disciplinary tool. The program won't let those who really need disicpline to slip through if it is managed the way it should be. They are both very stupid to not let this program run the way it was designed to run at their companies.

I agree 100% and FWIW, we just received an email about the NASAP program being carried over to DAL from NWA. I dont know the details about how it will be integrated but at least for now the program is being carried over. NWA knows the advantages of having the ASAP program both on an ALPA level and company level.

 

[igneousy2]

I can't believe some in the media are putting this on the union. Just as it is up to the company to choose to have good labor relations it is up to the company to promote a culture of safety.

A "good" safety conscious company would not need an ASAP program at all. They could just choose to manage their crews in a non-punitive way and encourage people to raise safety concerns whenever they are found...imagine that.

I have worked at airlines where crews trusted the program and filled out ASAPS almost daily. I have also worked at airlines where there would be no ASAP report unless there was a smoking hole in the ground.

Later

 

[ExFokkerFlyer]

At my previous carrier I got hosed because of an ASAP report that I filed. I got pegged for a line check... thought it was routine, I had been on the plane for six months, early line check not COMPLETELY unheard of. Went to work, three legs, oral questioning on every leg on the subjects reported in the ASAP report... until finally the checkairman fessed up. Told me that he was told to check me because of 'some report' i had filed. Company thought I didn't know what I was doing and decided that I might need retraining.

Fine, but there are two very valid points that I left out. The ASAP was filed about mistakes my FO made (yes I know I am ultimately responsible, that's why I filed an ASAP to cover my butt rather than narc to my Chief about my FO's lack of a clue). But perhaps the biggest problem was the ASAP committee hadn't met yet at the time of my line check... it was scheduled for the next day, which it was decided that no action would be taken.

Some idiot in the chain read the report and took it upon himself to take action on me, on things he didn't understand (not a pilot) within a program that he also didn't understand. He reported to the system Chief Pilot, who told the program manager, who told the lady who scheduled line checks, who then told both scheduling AND the check airman "what I had done and what I didn't know". How was that supposed to be confidential?

Moral to the story, if you think it may save your butt, think about filing... don't just do it as a matter of course like so many pilots do... the less 'paper' the better. It's not confidential, not when people are involved.

 

[Propsync]

At my previous carrier I got hosed because of an ASAP report that I filed. I got pegged for a line check... thought it was routine, I had been on the plane for six months, early line check not COMPLETELY unheard of. Went to work, three legs, oral questioning on every leg on the subjects reported in the ASAP report... until finally the checkairman fessed up. Told me that he was told to check me because of 'some report' i had filed. Company thought I didn't know what I was doing and decided that I might need retraining.

Fine, but there are two very valid points that I left out. The ASAP was filed about mistakes my FO made (yes I know I am ultimately responsible, that's why I filed an ASAP to cover my butt rather than narc to my Chief about my FO's lack of a clue). But perhaps the biggest problem was the ASAP committee hadn't met yet at the time of my line check... it was scheduled for the next day, which it was decided that no action would be taken.

Some idiot in the chain read the report and took it upon himself to take action on me, on things he didn't understand (not a pilot) within a program that he also didn't understand. He reported to the system Chief Pilot, who told the program manager, who told the lady who scheduled line checks, who then told both scheduling AND the check airman "what I had done and what I didn't know". How was that supposed to be confidential?

Moral to the story, if you think it may save your butt, think about filing... don't just do it as a matter of course like so many pilots do... the less 'paper' the better. It's not confidential, not when people are involved.

I think your case is borderline retaliation. However, I think it looks bad when the opposite crewmember doesn't file. It makes it look like you weren't working together as a crew and both don't fully understand what happened and why it needed to be done differently. I went out of my way to tell any FO flying with me, 'Hey, I think we should have done ...' 'We should fill out an ASAP report.' I expected the same attitude from my FO's. I filled out 5-6 over a couple of years, and I was grateful for what the program, when done correctly, offers for the aviation community. Maybe the program lacks the standardization that such a program needs.

 

[sinkrate]

At my previous carrier I got hosed because of an ASAP report that I filed. I got pegged for a line check... thought it was routine, I had been on the plane for six months, early line check not COMPLETELY unheard of. Went to work, three legs, oral questioning on every leg on the subjects reported in the ASAP report... until finally the checkairman fessed up. Told me that he was told to check me because of 'some report' i had filed. Company thought I didn't know what I was doing and decided that I might need retraining.

Fine, but there are two very valid points that I left out. The ASAP was filed about mistakes my FO made (yes I know I am ultimately responsible, that's why I filed an ASAP to cover my butt rather than narc to my Chief about my FO's lack of a clue). But perhaps the biggest problem was the ASAP committee hadn't met yet at the time of my line check... it was scheduled for the next day, which it was decided that no action would be taken.

Some idiot in the chain read the report and took it upon himself to take action on me, on things he didn't understand (not a pilot) within a program that he also didn't understand. He reported to the system Chief Pilot, who told the program manager, who told the lady who scheduled line checks, who then told both scheduling AND the check airman "what I had done and what I didn't know". How was that supposed to be confidential?

Moral to the story, if you think it may save your butt, think about filing... don't just do it as a matter of course like so many pilots do... the less 'paper' the better. It's not confidential, not when people are involved.

From what I have learned most carriers go through incidents like this when the program is first implemented. Mine did. The union's grievance committee was all over it. The CP's office, and in some cases the FAA's representative, have a hard time giving up their old ways of thinking. Once management and your local FAA office learn a new way of thinking it is a great program. Out of the reports submitted at our carrier our POI finally realized many 'pilot errors' were not pilot errors at all. Which is one reason management is very uncomfortable with the program.

As another poster noted, if you intentionally violate SOP or disegard regs ASAP will not help you. Your report will not be accepted and the Company will be free to pursue action against you if they can collect information from other sources.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

At my previous carrier I got hosed because of an ASAP report that I filed. I got pegged for a line check... thought it was routine, I had been on the plane for six months, early line check not COMPLETELY unheard of. Went to work, three legs, oral questioning on every leg on the subjects reported in the ASAP report... until finally the checkairman fessed up. Told me that he was told to check me because of 'some report' i had filed. Company thought I didn't know what I was doing and decided that I might need retraining.

Fine, but there are two very valid points that I left out. The ASAP was filed about mistakes my FO made (yes I know I am ultimately responsible, that's why I filed an ASAP to cover my butt rather than narc to my Chief about my FO's lack of a clue). But perhaps the biggest problem was the ASAP committee hadn't met yet at the time of my line check... it was scheduled for the next day, which it was decided that no action would be taken.

Some idiot in the chain read the report and took it upon himself to take action on me, on things he didn't understand (not a pilot) within a program that he also didn't understand. He reported to the system Chief Pilot, who told the program manager, who told the lady who scheduled line checks, who then told both scheduling AND the check airman "what I had done and what I didn't know". How was that supposed to be confidential?

Moral to the story, if you think it may save your butt, think about filing... don't just do it as a matter of course like so many pilots do... the less 'paper' the better. It's not confidential, not when people are involved.

Why didn't you just work with your FO to correct his mistakes. Kept it between the two of you....

Wouldn't that be better than getting a line check?

I realize there is a trust issue with ASAP here... however, if the FO does or doesn't fill out the form he may get spanked. Or in this case, you got unwanted attnetion. Finally, you don't wan't a crew member filling out a report on you? Work together on these issues...

Also, when a check airman starts giving you an oral on a line check then it isn't a line a check and its a distraction and hinderance to flight safety...

Check airman are supposed to be wallflowers... smile, be polite and keep their mouths shut!

 

[Truckdriver]

Why didn't you just work with your FO to correct his mistakes. Kept it between the two of you....

Wouldn't that be better than getting a line check?

If you work for a company that is not using it correctly, that is what you should do if you have not done something that could possibly lead to FAA action. If you do something that could possibly lead to FAA action, then the ASAP program forbids them from doing anything other than issuing a letter of warning. They may require some company training if the panel ALL agrees it is needed. With that being said, I worked for XJT and I dared submit an ASAP for anything knowing they would use it for safety and not dicipline. You do need a company that will use it as a safety tool and not a disciplinary tool. That is what Delta was doing so DALPA said, "No ASAP for you". All ASAP programs should be modeled after the program that they had at Indy Air and the one they now have at XJT.

 

[TNPILOT]

All ASAP programs should be modeled after the program that they had at Indy Air and the one they now have at XJT.

Agree, our program XJT is solid.

 

[CopilotDoug]

From Management's perspective, this might be counter-productive to be involved in a program like this during contract negotiations. How can you ask the pilots to work more if you have a stack of papers on fatigue related incidents?