American and Delta drop the ASAP program

[sinkrate]

At my previous carrier I got hosed because of an ASAP report that I filed. I got pegged for a line check... thought it was routine, I had been on the plane for six months, early line check not COMPLETELY unheard of. Went to work, three legs, oral questioning on every leg on the subjects reported in the ASAP report... until finally the checkairman fessed up. Told me that he was told to check me because of 'some report' i had filed. Company thought I didn't know what I was doing and decided that I might need retraining.

Fine, but there are two very valid points that I left out. The ASAP was filed about mistakes my FO made (yes I know I am ultimately responsible, that's why I filed an ASAP to cover my butt rather than narc to my Chief about my FO's lack of a clue). But perhaps the biggest problem was the ASAP committee hadn't met yet at the time of my line check... it was scheduled for the next day, which it was decided that no action would be taken.

Some idiot in the chain read the report and took it upon himself to take action on me, on things he didn't understand (not a pilot) within a program that he also didn't understand. He reported to the system Chief Pilot, who told the program manager, who told the lady who scheduled line checks, who then told both scheduling AND the check airman "what I had done and what I didn't know". How was that supposed to be confidential?

Moral to the story, if you think it may save your butt, think about filing... don't just do it as a matter of course like so many pilots do... the less 'paper' the better. It's not confidential, not when people are involved.

From what I have learned most carriers go through incidents like this when the program is first implemented. Mine did. The union's grievance committee was all over it. The CP's office, and in some cases the FAA's representative, have a hard time giving up their old ways of thinking. Once management and your local FAA office learn a new way of thinking it is a great program. Out of the reports submitted at our carrier our POI finally realized many 'pilot errors' were not pilot errors at all. Which is one reason management is very uncomfortable with the program.

As another poster noted, if you intentionally violate SOP or disegard regs ASAP will not help you. Your report will not be accepted and the Company will be free to pursue action against you if they can collect information from other sources.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

At my previous carrier I got hosed because of an ASAP report that I filed. I got pegged for a line check... thought it was routine, I had been on the plane for six months, early line check not COMPLETELY unheard of. Went to work, three legs, oral questioning on every leg on the subjects reported in the ASAP report... until finally the checkairman fessed up. Told me that he was told to check me because of 'some report' i had filed. Company thought I didn't know what I was doing and decided that I might need retraining.

Fine, but there are two very valid points that I left out. The ASAP was filed about mistakes my FO made (yes I know I am ultimately responsible, that's why I filed an ASAP to cover my butt rather than narc to my Chief about my FO's lack of a clue). But perhaps the biggest problem was the ASAP committee hadn't met yet at the time of my line check... it was scheduled for the next day, which it was decided that no action would be taken.

Some idiot in the chain read the report and took it upon himself to take action on me, on things he didn't understand (not a pilot) within a program that he also didn't understand. He reported to the system Chief Pilot, who told the program manager, who told the lady who scheduled line checks, who then told both scheduling AND the check airman "what I had done and what I didn't know". How was that supposed to be confidential?

Moral to the story, if you think it may save your butt, think about filing... don't just do it as a matter of course like so many pilots do... the less 'paper' the better. It's not confidential, not when people are involved.

Why didn't you just work with your FO to correct his mistakes. Kept it between the two of you....

Wouldn't that be better than getting a line check?

I realize there is a trust issue with ASAP here... however, if the FO does or doesn't fill out the form he may get spanked. Or in this case, you got unwanted attnetion. Finally, you don't wan't a crew member filling out a report on you? Work together on these issues...

Also, when a check airman starts giving you an oral on a line check then it isn't a line a check and its a distraction and hinderance to flight safety...

Check airman are supposed to be wallflowers... smile, be polite and keep their mouths shut!

 

[Truckdriver]

Why didn't you just work with your FO to correct his mistakes. Kept it between the two of you....

Wouldn't that be better than getting a line check?

If you work for a company that is not using it correctly, that is what you should do if you have not done something that could possibly lead to FAA action. If you do something that could possibly lead to FAA action, then the ASAP program forbids them from doing anything other than issuing a letter of warning. They may require some company training if the panel ALL agrees it is needed. With that being said, I worked for XJT and I dared submit an ASAP for anything knowing they would use it for safety and not dicipline. You do need a company that will use it as a safety tool and not a disciplinary tool. That is what Delta was doing so DALPA said, "No ASAP for you". All ASAP programs should be modeled after the program that they had at Indy Air and the one they now have at XJT.

 

[TNPILOT]

All ASAP programs should be modeled after the program that they had at Indy Air and the one they now have at XJT.

Agree, our program XJT is solid.

 

[CopilotDoug]

From Management's perspective, this might be counter-productive to be involved in a program like this during contract negotiations. How can you ask the pilots to work more if you have a stack of papers on fatigue related incidents?

 

[Browntothebone]

Not exactly how it works. At least not if you've got a decent ASAP MOU in your contract.

How does yours work at airtran?

 

[PCL_128]

How does yours work at airtran?

Horribly. We didn't negotiate an ASAP LOA into our agreement, so we have no real protections. The program we had at Pinnacle was far superior. Our Safety Chairman there worked for years to put a great program in place, and it provided great protections for our members.

 

[Captain X]

Agree, our program XJT is solid.

YES. Outstanding and should be use as a model for the entire ERC at each carrier!

 

[AirMorgan]

SkyWest also has a solid ASAP program. I wish DAL would follow their lead. It is a must have for airline pilots (light years ahead of the NASA form).

 

[NuGuy]

SkyWest also has a solid ASAP program. I wish DAL would follow their lead. It is a must have for airline pilots (light years ahead of the NASA form).

Heyas,

The good news is that NWA is keeping their ASAP and FOQA programs for the forseeable future, and are working full time to transition them to DAL.

Nu

 

[ReverseSensing]

The fact of the matter is that any LOA between management and labor with respect to the 3-party MOU is on somewhat shaky ground legally. The boilerplate FAA MOU specifically disallows any side agreements with respect to ASAP.

But the FAA seems to basically turn a blind eye to them and the side letters can do a great job of explicitly showing management where they can and cannot go. If your management is crap, all the side letter does is put them on notice as to what kinds of shenanigans will lead the pilot group to walk out. If your management is actually somewhat committed to non-punitive data-gathering for the purposes of improving safety margins, a side letter can be very useful to flesh out the operating rules of ASAP and to add some protections that the piece of crap FAA boilerplate doesn't include, like full deidentification.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Stick with ASRS for as long as it lasts.

 

[Capi_Cafre']

It's not inconceivable that a line check might be part of an ERC-recommended training event, but if that was not the case that would be a problem. What happens in ASAP needs to stay in ASAP, so evidence of "leakage" into the flight standards apparatus should be a huge red flag. A side letter can be an effective way for a pilot group to clearly articulate its expectations with regard to anonymity and confidentiality, but it's useless without a credible threat to withdraw from the program if those protections are breached.

ASAP can be a great program, but it requires both the local FAA and airline management to completely buy into the revolutionary (for many) philosophy that we as professional pilots are out there on the line trying to do it the right way. It's worked well at my airline, but that required getting a few old-school types on the sidelines before we could move forward.

Even the strongest ASAP can be abused once, but I'm certain that both the FAA and our management are clear on the fact that the immediate consequence of using self-disclosure to cut someone out of the herd would be the end of the program.

 

[NuGuy]

Stick with ASRS for as long as it lasts.

ASRS provides far fewer protections than a properly implemented ASAP program.

With ASRS, you still get nicked for the violation, you just don't have to serve the time.

Nu