American and American Eagle

[AA717driver]

I think AE and AA are a match made in heaven... TC

 

[C77MD80]

You all still don't get it at AA and AE. Hostage you are way off base; this whole situation never would have exploded into such a fiasco and dismal wages at your company as well as AE had it not been for your union giving away the store to begin with. AE was created in part as a give and take for AMR to AA pilots. Were you at AA when AE was created? What did AA pilots gain at the expense of a few 19 seat turboprops? Did you hire on with the B scale? Not too many pilots back in the late 80's even would have considered AA because of the lousy wages! Your top pilots gained at the expense of those hired on at the time.

You continue to bicker over what's mine and you are giving AMR exactly what they want. AMR is the king of pitting groups against each other. You shouldn't have given any flying away to turboprops, way back in the early eighties to begin with. All of the flying should be yours but it's not, wake up and deal with it. While you at AA and AE are doing all this bickering your flying is now going to American Connection; those companies are benefiting because of your AMR managment taking advantage of both groups while you all try to figure out which flying rightfully belongs to you. Boy, your union does you a lot of good! You should embrace AE and start working together. Bringing payrates up should be a priority but as long as you continue to pit one against the other it will never work. As long as CSM's are lower at AE you are going to lose your gravy job. Talk to your union at start working together or you are correct the career won't be the same.

Flow thru didn't work for shi# at AE to AA why should flow back be any different? You two groups have pissed each other off enough that this is to be expected and it's perfect for AMR since their training costs will go down and the bigger picture is that your flying still will be outsourced while AMR is lauhging all the way.

Good luck!

 

[Neubyfly]

.... A 767 FO can make 160K at AA next year.

Huh? The contract shows 12th year Captain of a 767 making $139.80 as of 5/1/2004. A 12 year F/O gets 68% of that. How is a 767 F/O going to make 160K a year???? Please site your source. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Neubyfly]

Im not going to give away my secret because some senior guy will beat me out. But it involves selling vacation back. TTOT with ST. Bidding the nice trips and getting displaced and bidding lots of hours that you don't really fly. There is always some way around the contract. Thats the sickness that AMR and APA created. Im sorry Carty's ego bought TWA. It hasn't worked out for anyone.
Maybe management will get their act together but I doubt it. Between 2006 and 2010 AA will retire close to 1800 pilots. I think AE will suck all that up.

Having been gone since May 1st....... Can you still play those games under the new super-concessionary contract? I thought some of those loopholes got closed?........ Just wondering.

As for straight pay: B-767/300 F/o

Airline Year 6 Year 7 Year 8 Year 9 Year 10 Year 11 Year 12
AA $92.95 $95.16 $97.40 $100.42 $102.71 $104.26 $105.05

DAL $158.07 $162.42 $166.24 $167.91 $170.72 $172.79 $174.85

CO $125.54 $128.39 $131.28 $133.70 $136.64 $138.10 $139.00

UAL $105.11 $107.67 $110.45 $111.51 $113.08 $114.72 $115.96

US $105.46 $108.40 $110.96 $112.10 $114.01 $115.43 $116.84

 

[TWA Dude]

AWA is feeding off our taxes for now.

Not correct. The Government guaranteed the loans to AWA but the actual money came from private lenders. It'll only cost the taxpayers money if AWA defaults on the loans. In fact, it's my understanding that due to AWA's stock rising the taxpayer is making out quite nicely on the deal.

Note: past performance is no guarantee of future success.

 

[jetexas]

C77MD80...

... You are right on the money. 100% agreed.

AMR is the master of the whipsaw. First, APA makes an open grab, out of desperation, for 'all' captain upgrades at Eagle. Then EGL ALPA makes an grab for the 100 seat jets. Our unions took the bait. AMR 'still' thinks it's cute to pit everyone at each others throat.

It as if we are all ants or wasps in a mason jar being shaken up by management. What the company doesn't understand is eventually the glass will break and they will get the sh*t stung out of them..if not by the work force then the competition.

 

[Goodstick]

Hostage wrote:
"For instance AE turned down a flow back C5A airforce type because he didn't have 3000 total AC hours and was considered unqualified. The whole thing is a joke. My buddy has decided to take a job setting up irrigation rather that fly for AE wages as an RJ Capt at $50 something/hour."


3000 hours at Eagle Isn't $hit. I , an FO, have 6000 and bet some other FO's have alot more than I. 3000 hours in a autopilot equiped C5 on 12 hour legs comes very quickly. I do not look forward to baby sitting my Captains with a higher employee number then mine. As far as I am concerned we can end this whole flowthru/flowback. We all know that if AA starts hiring again your just going to hire your military buddies. I take solice in knowing that not all AA pilots are as arrogant as you are.

 

[Draginass]

So . . . . . let's summarize:

AA Sucks
AE Sucks
The APA really sucks
The contracts suck
Flowthru sucks
Flowback sucks
Morale sucks
I suck
You suck
The past sucks
The future's gonna suck
Life sucks

Have I missed anything?

 

[TCAS]

You will never see another Eagle Pilot flow through to AA main line again.

With 2458 pilots on furlough ALL of them need to be recalled before any of the current Eagle pilots with seniority numbers can excerise their AA seniority number.

Slow down there G4G5... This one will probably be decided by an arbitrator. Check your contract. It says furloughee's will be recalled in seniority order. You can't go skipping names on a seniority list if they have met all the conditions and limitations of Letter 3/Supplement W.

 

[G4G5]

When they recalled the AA pilots that were furloughed out of sequence , after the TWA aquisition(approx 245 if my memory is correct).

How many of the Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers were recalled?
Answer: Zero

Their were definatly Eagle pilots with seniority numbers amungst that group, yet none came over.

 

[AA717driver]

G4G5--You are right. Sup. W. says the only way a flowthrough can get on the property at AA is in a "newhire class". It'll be awhile.TC

P.S.--Before the AE types start flaming, you can have my number, I'm trying to escape to a G4/G5 job myself. I can't afford to stay at AA.

 

[TCAS]

G4G5--You are right. Sup. W. says the only way a flowthrough can get on the property at AA is in a "newhire class". It'll be awhile.

AA717 and G4G5,

First off... I don't have an AA number and will never see an AA number so I don't have a dog in this fight.

Second... I suggest you both contact APA and ask for the transcripts from the testimony given by previous APA President James Sovich, a princpal architect of Letter 3/Supplement W, during the recent Kasher arbitration.

On page 337-338 Sovich was questioned concerning recall of pilots holding AA seniority numbers. Captain Sovich stated openly, and without hesitation:

"If we're going to recall 500 guys, the first one that goes is the most senior guy. If he's flying as CJ Captain, if he had never flown at American, it's him." (page 337)

Q. "-- An Eagle captain who has never been at American Airlines, was never hired at American Airlines or trained at American Airlines is going to get recall rights to American Airlines ahead of a furloughed American pilot who's on the street?"

A. "If he's senior. Not if he's junior. If he's senior, yes." (page 338)

American Airlines management has stated to ALPA that they do not agree with this interpretation of recalls. That is why I said this matter will end up being decided in arbitration since ALPA will no doubt file a grievance on the issue based on Captain Sovich's testimony.

T

 

[resistance]

Just a thought to all you APA pilots who think all Eagle guys are living in poverty....


Do you really think I just survive on my pay at Eagle? I see my pay at Eagle as a part time job. I didn't go to college for aviation I went to college to make a better life for my family. This job provides me the time off to make my real income. You can have your pension at AA because I could really care two-cents about your pension or job security. You guys must live in a hangar and talk about flying 24/7 and AA is the center of the universe for you. Personally I enjoy my time away from the TSA/AA/AE/FAA/ALPA/APA lies and rumors. Open a door and take a walk outside one day because life is too short to spend inside with so much personal anger.

 

[PacoPollo]

[B

How many of the Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers were recalled?
Answer: Zero


Thats because they were never furloughed..(flowthru-guys)..
you idiot.

 

[AA717driver]

Ok, if the furloughs stop after Mar. 2, what happens to the flowthroughs that have numbers senior to the most junior pilot not furloughed?

Do they get put in a recall class?

Why would anyone want to work at either AA or AE? TC

 

[G4G5]

[B

How many of the Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers were recalled?
Answer: Zero


Thats because they were never furloughed..(flowthru-guys)..
you idiot.

Do you bother to read any of the posts? Read TCAS's post and you will see that he is claming that they have recall rights DESPITE NEVER BEING FURLOUGHED.

My point is;
If that is the case then the Eagle pilots with seniority numbers inside the range of the recalled AA pilots, should have been recalled. Or the Eagle pilots whose numbers are senior to current AA line pilots should have been recalled. Since, that was not the case and the precedent has been set. I doubt what he refers to will ever come to fruition

But................

His point:
He brings out an excellent point about the recent arbitration hearing that I was not aware of. Currently I am in the process of looking into what he was refering to .

Notice how he added something to the post?

Don't waste our time unless you have something to add to the discussion, "you idiot".

 

[PacoPollo]

Originally posted by G4G5

Don't waste out time unless you have something to add to the discussion, "you idiot". [/B]

Im offended... I will get back to you some other time. Now Im off to fly the RJ on your mainline route.

 

[G4G5]

Im offended... I will get back to you some other time. Now Im off to fly the RJ on your mainline route.

No problem, I can wait for your insightful commentary.

Until then I'll be looking down at you from FL450.

 

[Eaglepuke]

I remember the good old days of F. Lee Bailey preaching about how Eagle pilots were less select, less skilled. I guess the saying is true. Paybacks really are hell.

Boatloads of flow backs are too incompetent to pass a check ride that most of the Eagle pilots pass with no problems even thought the flow backs get extra training.

I just pray that the FO's on the line watch themselves and keep them from killing people and making us look bad.

Just a few tips to all the APAer's who wish to come to Eagle.

-Don't forget, this is not train to proficiency. You can flunk.
-You FO is not allowed to carry you through the ride. If you fly into a mountain, they have to let you.
-Think you are being pissed on? Get used to it. Just try to believe it when they tell you its raining.


Good luck on the 709 rides.

 

[beagle pilot]

After Eastern and Pan Am put a lot of good pilots on the streets, it was proposed to ALPA National to enact a universal seniority system. Members of the remaining big three shot it down quicker than a hydrogen balloon.

Prior to the APA's 2/3 of a billion dollar concession, both the APA and the Eagle ALPA MEC had been in discussions of Unity for over a year. Both parties were tired of the whipsawing by mAAnagemet. As soon as management raised the idea of "concede or lose your pensions", the APA BOD immediately slammed the door closed on any further discussions of unity.

Any pilot who has followed airline history since deregulation can see the trend. Fighting amongst ourselves serves no purpose. Either we work together or struggle for survival apart.

Side note: No flowback to Eagle was ever treated any differently by the Training Department than any other pilot who went through Eagle training. It is very unforgiving. The motto of the VP of Flight at my airline is "If you don't like it, quit." I can categorically state that no AA pilot was ever treated any worse than any Eagle pilot. We are all equally treated as disposable assets. It is the Eagle way. Don't feel special at Eagle because you aren't. At Eagle, you are just a unit which can be replaced on a whim. Sad, but true.

As Professional Pilots, we have a choice. We can either work together or fight each other over survival. I opt for working together. Your call.