American and American Eagle

[G4G5]

Tcas and 717.

TCAS,
I stand corrected, I spoke to my source at the union and you in fact are correct. The Sovich testimony is, "darning". As it presently stands furoulgh recalls will happen in seniority.

AA is against this because it will require that they have to send the Eagle pilots through AA basic indoc. Which requires more training, hence more money. That is why they like to have the Eagle pilots come in with the new hires. AA furloughed pilots are not required to do this and in some cases the training can be shortened.

From what I gather the APA has little intention of fighting this. For one thing the SOBitch testimony is so dam1ng that they would just be wasting money. Secondly, lets be honest, like I have always said, "it always comes down to the money". They get their 2% either way, which equates to even more money from the Eagle pilots.

What this really does is screw the furloughed AA pilot. I know for me personally it will keep me out on the street 7 months longer(approx 210 Eagle pilots w/numbers ahead of me @ a recall rate of 30 per month). With 400+ Eagle pilots having numbers, the most jr AA pilot is looking at having well over a year added to his/her furlough.

AMR mgt does not like the this because it will cost them money so from what I gather they are the ones who want to arbitrate it. Who know, what will happen? Maybe the Eagle pilots can work something out with AMR mgt to benefit all the Eagle pilots. IMHO the APA will be doing little to fight it.

Again, TCAS, as it stands today, you are correct. Thanks for the info.

 

[pipejockey]

Sorry for the stupid question but this thread is getting very difficult to understand and I'd like to have a better understanding of how this works.

You guys are not saying that an Eagle captain who has chosen to receive a seniority # at AA and who has not, prior to the start of furloughs, ever even crossed over to AA yet, is still gaining AA seniority at Eagle and could crossover to AA before the new-hires off the street who were hired by AA during, say, the summer of 2001 are you? I mean the guys on the street have seniority that is basically frozen while Eagle Pilots continue to increase seniority?

 

[beagle pilot]

Pipejockey, don't sweat the small stuff. The bottom 500 AA pilots won't see their jobs again until well in to the next decade if ever, so any contracts such as flow throughs don't matter any more. It is each for their own. The APA made that clear when they cut off discussions on UNITY. ALPA made that clear when they refused to discuss a universal seniority system. Not cynical, just realistic.

 

[Neubyfly]

Pipejockey, don't sweat the small stuff. The bottom 500 AA pilots won't see their jobs again until well in to the next decade .

You got that right!!! And the APA made sure that 500 (1500+) were TWA guys/gals!!!

The APA is an absolute JOKE! Now if I could only get that Bizex seniority number back!

 

[TCAS]

You guys are not saying that an Eagle captain who has chosen to receive a seniority # at AA and who has not, prior to the start of furloughs, ever even crossed over to AA yet, is still gaining AA seniority at Eagle and could crossover to AA before the new-hires off the street who were hired by AA during, say, the summer of 2001 are you? I mean the guys on the street have seniority that is basically frozen while Eagle Pilots continue to increase seniority?

The Eagle pilot is not increasing seniority at AA while he's flying at Eagle. Here is an example...

Joe Eaglepilot completed his IOE on the Eagle Embraer jet on June 10, 2000. He was assigned a seniority number from the next newhire class that AA held. For the purposes of this example let's say that was on June 15th. So Joe Eaglepilot has a seniority date of June 15, 2000, which is called his occupational seniority date. He must serve 24 months of a lock-in flying the Embraer before he's allowed to flow to AA. At the conclusion of the 24 month lock-in Joe Eaglepilot was to have flowed to AA being put in the next new hire class.

For a moment let's say 9/11 and the economy tanking did not occur. It's now June 15, 2002. Joe Eaglepilot has completed his two year lock-in and goes to the next newhire class at AA. Even though he's got a seniority number that's two years old at this point he's being paid at a newhire rate and bids as if he's a newhire. For Joe Eaglepilots entire career at AA his pay rate and bidding seniority would be two years behind his occupational seniority date due to the lock-in that he had to serve on the Embraer.

Now let's go back to June 15, 2000 and let history play out as it occured...

Hiring is continuing at AA and every month newhires begin class. It's now Spring 2001 and Sam AApilot is hired and is given a seniority date of April 15, 2001. Everything is going along fine until September 11, 2001. Now Sam AApilot finds out he's being furloughed on February 1, 2002.

Time goes by and on June 10, 2002 Joe Eaglepilot's lock-in on the Embraer is complete but since no hiring is going on at AA he can't flow over so he continues to fly at Eagle.

Years and years go by and AA begins to hire... for grins and giggles lets say it's August 2006. AA goes to the furloughed seniority list and starts to recall in seniority order. Now here is where it gets tricky. The former APA President says that recalls will be done in seniority order with the most senior being recalled first and those following them being done in seniority order. In our example Joe Eaglepilot is senior by 10 months to Sam AApilot. According to the previous APA President even though Joe Eaglepilot has never trained or flown at AA he is senior to Sam AApilot and is to be recalled first. Joe Eaglepilot's pay is day one pay at AA and he bids as if he is a newhire. When Sam AApilot is recalled he comes back with 9 1/2 months of seniority for the purposes of pay and bidding.

AMR management disagree with this recall method purely, as G4G5 points out, for cost reasons. To recall the Eagle pilots holding AA numbers during an AA recall requires the the company to both replace the pilots as they leave Eagle and pay for the cost of a full indoc training cycle.

As I've stated before, there is only one thing I'm sure of and that is this will end up before an arbitrator. How an arbitrator will decide is anybody's guess.

TCAS

 

[pipejockey]

Thanks tcas its clearer now. What a mess this will cause. I don't think anybody ever thought it would be working in reverse like this. I almost got on with Eagle prior to 9/11. I did not start class though, thus no seniority # and no recall, and thought this flow-thru was the next best thing to apple pie! I also understood you could use that 2 years of seniority for bidding aircraft type when flowing thru. I was told during summer of 2001 that some flow-throughs were getting 757. Anyway this will be dicey. I dont think its right that an AA pilot hired off the street and then furloughed should get jumped by an Eagle pilot who never even was at AA.

I hope your wrong beagle pilot, and by 2007 the recalls will be complete, I know thats probably best case scenario. Of the 2400 who will be furloughed I would guess 30% will have gone elsewhere, LCC's or fractionals or Corporate, leaving 1600 left. I'm figuring 300 are retiring each year from a 10000 pilot workforce thats over 900 by 2007 leaving a difference 700 which I hope will be needed as capacity is slowly increased as our economy improves. Just wishful thinking but very possible I feel.

 

[C77MD80]

Hey Pipejockey,

I interviewed at Eagle in 1994 and was initially bummed out that I got the big rejection letter. This was my first interview and I was flying for a really shi##y freight operator out of Michigan. I wanted to be a part of one of the biggest airlines in the world, fly shiny new AAirplanes and be part of something spectacular. I didn’t educate myself as to how miserable these people actually were. What an absolute blessing in disguise! I now have first hand knowledge with the AMR fAAmily as I was acquired and not hired and let me tell you it’s an ugly dysfunctional relationship. I am one of the furloughees and part of the 30% that is bailing. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a higher percentage than that. The unfortunate thing is that this is exactly what AMR wants. When the business traveler returns and AA starts to call back their pilots you better bet your bottom dollar that they absolutely don’t want me to return. I would come back at 4th year pay and other co-workers of mine would receive even max pay of 12 years (for their 12 to even 15 years of service that they didn’t get seniority for.) Quite a difference than a new hire that would of course come in at 1st year pay. AMR will have a new group of little AAviators ready to drink the kool-aid! Fortunately to all the wise aviators that frequent this message boards as well as talking with the pilot public they will know better and realize that quality of life goes much beyond making top dollar/benefits in the industry and hopefully will wind up at Southwest/Airtran/FedEx just to name a few that treat their employees with a little respect.

Hope you get on somewhere……else……good luck!

 

[JohnDoe]

pipejockey:

Something else to keep in mind if you are thinking of going to Eagle with hopes of a flow-through:

The flow-through agreement, I believe, expires in 2007. Even if you were hired next month, by the time you make jet captain (whats that up to.....7-8 years senority?), the agreement will have expired.

(as I said before in this thread, if I am wrong on the expiration, please correct me)

 

[vclean]

As a former EA pilot, I have a copy of the contract. Letter 3, which details flow through/ flow back provisions, was signed 5/5/97. Letter 3 expires 10 years from the date.

" VII. Duration

A. This Supplemental Agreement shall be effective on signing and shall continue in full force and effect through the later of:

1. The amendable date of the next ensuing Basic Agreement between AA and ALPA.

2. Ten (10) years from the date of signing of the Supplemental Agreement, at which time this Supplemental Agreement shall become null, void and of no further force and effect."

 

[jetexas]

pipejockey:

I came to Eagle primarily for the flowthrough. I was a succor but I didn't know any better at the time.
From the outside, AMR looks like a good company to work for. Afteral it is the biggest, then it must be the best?
Only 124 guys flowed through to AA during the biggest hiring boom the airlines will likely see. That same boom brought approximately 5500 pilots over to AA when you include the TWA merge. The flow doesn't sound like such a good deal huh?

Choose wisely and look at trends. Set your sights on a company that has quick upgrades (not several years) and 'decent' treatment of employees. All regionals pretty much s*ck, some more that others. You goal is to spend as little time in the salt mines as possible.
Don't buy into things like "flowthroughs" that are really only meant as recruiting tools anyway.
For example, ASA had many many more pilots (by percentage) go to Delta from 98-01 than Eagle had go to AA...and ASA does not even have a flowthrough!!
Good luck

 

[mach zero]

Working for American Eagle for 7 years was the 2nd biggest mistake I ever made...wanting to work for American was the first.

To all those who are thinking of working for any AMR Co. DON'T DO IT!!! It is never going to change. The hatred between the pilot groups is too deep to conquer. Plus if you are hired as an F/O at Eagle, you will NOT upgrade for a VERY long time. This will trap you at Eagle for way too long since most majors require PIC turbine time. When I left at the beginning of September the time to jet CA was 9 years.

AMR is an evil empire that exists for the sole purpose of supporting senior mgmnts severence packages. I thank my lucky stars that I just got hired elswhere and I can watch all this as a casual observer.

FREE at last, Free at last, thank GOD ALMIGHTY, I'm Free at last!!!

 

[pipejockey]

Thanks for all the info. I must admit I've heard far more negative comments about Eagle and AA than good. For the past 2 years I've tried to set my sights on other endeavors and walk away from the airline pilot dream...but I just can't seem to give up on it, even after these last 2 years. And as someone who is nearer to my early 30's as opposed to early 20's, I dont have much time left to get things going. I feel the industry is turning around and that a lot of the negativity has occured in large part to the industry changing event of a couple years ago, the farther we get away from that day the better.

With my limited # of flight hours my options are extremely limited and feel I need to take whatever comes along. That doesnt mean I'll sell my soul to the devil AKA JO. I could have done RAA's Colgan PFT, I refuse to do that as well. Even GIA's first officer program causes me problems when a viable first officer position has to be bought, even though they pay 8 bucks an hour it is a far cry from the 20 some thousand the program costs. You can go to a part 135 operation and buy right seat time but not take anyones job because they are approved for single pilot operations up to SA227 and BE1900, I think they are good deals and Ive done that myself. Even Chataqua and Trans States I have issues with from what Ive read on these boards.

It seems to me that Eagle is not going around like other carriers and low-balling the other carriers and taking work out from under them and thereby encouraging the industry for further cuts and accelerating the race to the bottom. I would like to know, though, how much mainline flying they are considered to have taken from AA, that is a major dilema I have. On the other hand CHIT has probably taken flying from Eagle, you can go round and round forever on this. It seems like everybody is getting screwed by everybody else anymore, I guess what it comes down to is making the decision I feel that is least likely to screw others in the profession and one that will allow me to look in the mirror and say Ive done my best.

Thanks Y'all for your real world opinions.

 

[SkySpray]

Mach:
That was an excellent post, and it pretty much sums up my feeling about AMR; couldn't agree with you more. I worked at Eagle for a few years, and was "lucky" enough to get hired at a time when prop upgrades were running about 18 months (that's super-quick for Eagle). I was later "lucky" enough to get hired at AA in mid-2001. I was on top of the world at the time. Well, that only lasted a few months, and I'll probably be recalled in about 7-8 years (i.e. below all of TWA). Fortunately, I was recently offered a position at America West, and that's where I intend to retire at age 60.. assuming they're still around. I should be a Captain at AWA by the time AA gets around to dusting off my seniority number. So that's a big ..!.. to AA.

During the short amount of time I worked there, I also realized that AA wasn't as good as I figured it would be. I realized there are more important things out there than working for the "best" company. To be honest with you, most of the folks at AA are not fun to fly with. Senior captains are still hung up on glory days of flying sorties over north Vietnam, and all the young guys seem to talk about is how they still "drive a Viper part-time in the Guard".
Most of us (at least the civ type) got into flying because it was fun, and it's more than a job to us. I get the impressions from most of the AA guys that it's merely work, just like a normal 9-5 position would be. They do not realize how lucky they are to be there.

Pipejockey:
Look at it this way, you are nearing age 30, however, that means that you still have 30+ years of flying in you.. maybe 35+ if the age 60 rule ever gets bumped to 65. It's never too late. Even if you did not get hired at a regional until age 35 (that won't be the case), that means you still have 25 years left! That's a long time! I would rather retire at a regional than be a 9-5 pencil-pusher any day of the week. Better to take a risk than looking back on your life and saying "darn, I wish I'd done that". By that time it will be too late. I flew with several people at Eagle that didn't take their first flight lesson until age 40.

As for which company to work for, take it from me, don't get sucked into the whole "I only want to work for ABC or XYZ airline, because they're the best". That happened to me.. I thought Eagle was the "place to be", which it wasn't. Back in the day, I told myself that I would only work for American, Delta or United, and nobody else. What an idiot I was to think that! In your position, I would not turn my nose up at places like Mesa, TSA, Chatauqua, etc. Think of it this way, would you rather keep flight instructing (assuming that's what you're doing) while you're holding out for Comair, AirWis, etc... OR you could try and get on with a "lower tier" regional, spend some time there acquiring 121 turbine time, THEN move onto a different regional. In your position, I would go for whomever has the most realistic time-frame for a quick upgrade.. even if that means Mesa, or somewhere similar. That way, you have two options: stay at the "lower tier" regional and get some PIC turbine time, or bail outta there after a few months and move onto a regional that you really would enjoy working for. In my opinion, going to Mesa would beat the heck out of flight instructing, flying night cargo, jumpers etc any day of the week! At least you're building some quality turbine time, instead of piston.

Just my two cents, and best of luck to you.

 

[AAflyer]

You just never know,

Look where some airlines were at the end of the 90s. Look at the ones that have survived, the ones that failed. Look at the payscales of the late 90s, and now. Look at the companies in BK and the ones that narrowly avoided it (atleast for the time being).

There are no gurantees at JB, AA or even SWA. No one can predict the future, just like 9-11 could never be predicted. If anyone thinks they are immune from failure than they are only fooling themselves.

Pilots with egos that were hired at DAL,AA,UAL NWA etc looked at the Airtran pilots or JB pilots as inferior. Too bad.. They are and were just as good as any of us at any major. It is not the uniform you wear but the aviator you are. It seems now the tides have turned and sometimes I almost sense that same attitude redirected. That is too bad as well.

I am proud to work at AA. I am not proud at what 69% of my peers voted for, I am not proud at the way SOME have treated TWA and Eagle pilots (former Simmons myself).

I dislike being called a SCAAB for what my union tried to do with the Captains seats at Eagle as I did not agree, although putting in a bid to fly the 100 seaters because Eagle could fly them cheaper than AA sounds like that word could be used again.

I dislike what management has done to us as a group, but I dislike more the cop -out of not working at AMR because the blood is so bad between groups"caused by managment". That is the fault of the individual, we all make our own decisions and choices in life, there is no reason to blame others.

There are many fine people I have flown with at AA and AE, it is too bad a few give us all such a bad name.

A pilot's worth is not measured by the uniform, or the size of his jet. It is not measured by his W2s or his seniority number. It is measured in his professionalism and respect toward his fellow airman.

That is something I am seeing less and less of these days. It seems everyone has their reasons, but what a sad way to let this group of pilots continue to destroy what is left of our profession.

AA

 

[jetexas]

Excellant post AA flyer.

 

[mach zero]

Dear AAflyer,

Unfortunately the SOME that you refer too in your post are the ones influencing the policies over at AA. It may only be a minority but that minority was the same one that broke off merger talks with Eagle and screwed the vast majority of TWA pilots out of their livelihoods. So since a union acts on behalf of its membership then those affected by these deals understandably feel that a majority of AAer's wanted this. Actions speak louder than words...

Management is not to blame for all of this infighting they just egg alot of it on then leave the pilots to do the rest. I know all AA pilots don't hate TWA or Eagle folks because I have alot of friends that are AA Capt's. The real fact of the matter is there has been way too much finger pointing and not enough UNITY. I also believe there will never be any unity at least not for a long time. I would therefore hate to see new pilots plunge themselves into this situation. So I stand by my original statement...To all the new pilots out there, I highly recommend not working for any AMR Co.

Mach Zero

 

[AAflyer]

Mach Zero,

The livelihoods of many TWA EMPLOYEES have been destroyed, not to mention the thousands of families that worked for United, Delta, USAirways, NWA, Midway, National, Vanguard. Would you like me now to re-cap the the other airlines that have burned over the years wiping families out.

AA pilots did not have anything to do with the economic climate and terror attacks that catapulted us into trouble, a handful had decided how to integrate the list. Unforunatley just like two adults in divorce courts, comments are said, feelings are hurt and emotions run high. Both sides wanted what was best for their pilots. Each group fought for their group. I wish there was a better way, because each person will see it in different colors.

If things had gone the other way you would the same number of pilots (AND FAMILIES) out of luck, they would just be different people, no worse no better,but all in pain. Foul play would be screamed on the other side. Rightful place and equitable are always in the eyes of the beholder.

I am mad, I am mad at Carl Iccan for ripping TWA apart, I am pissed that Carty bought them like a trophy so his ego could be CEO of the largest airline, I am pissed at Goodwin for getting a 4 million dollar severnce package for screwing up, as others get thrown on the street. I am upset at the families that are destroyed, for proud airline pilots taking jobs at Home Depot because of mismanagement.

We do need to take accountability for our own actions, and yes actions speak louder than words. Should I assume because the MEC submitted a letter to fly our 100 seat jets ALL eagle pilots want that.

You know as well as I know there are small percent that stay involved (like this board) try to learn the facts and make their ideas known. You are also probably aware there are some pilots that could not give you the name of your MEC, just like some over here have no idea who their base reps are. SAD!!!!

You can stand by your comments, and I will stand by mine. There are a lot more good people here than bad. If enough of us start giving a SH!T it could get better. Actions do speak louder than words, that is why I try to give the EGL pilots I see the same professional nod and greeting as I would give my own.

AA

 

[resistance]

I could not agree more with AA Flyers comments. This company could be one of the best companies to work for...however....

The company sets the mood for the dance floor and they perfer a mosh pit to a waltz.

Management must learn to respect all its employees before all employees respect each other. You can get your workers to become more productive with positive motivation then negative rewards. Business school 101....(not taught at Wharton Business)

 

[Cleared Direct]

The Eagle pilot is not increasing seniority at AA while he's flying at Eagle. Here is an example...

... Even though he's got a seniority number that's two years old at this point he's being paid at a newhire rate and bids as if he's a newhire. For Joe Eaglepilots entire career at AA his pay rate and bidding seniority would be two years behind his occupational seniority date due to the lock-in that he had to serve on the Embraer.

TCAS,

You apparently have not taken the time to actually even read Supplement W or Letter 3. The Eagle pilot's AA occupational seniority date of hire and AA seniority number is used for bidding purposes. In other words the Eagle pilot does accrue time at AA for bidding purposes from the day he is on APA's seniority list. The Eagle pilot does start at first year pay though when or if he goes to AA. The Eagle pilot does not begin to accrue time toward retirement either until the first day at AA. Vacation is based on accumulative time at Eagle and AA.

How about you do a little research before you spew your BS. The reality is none of this matters because there will be no more flow throughs to AA, but I hate your attempt to give misinformation.

I will post the text from Letter 3/ Supplement W below:

____________________

B. If a CJ Captain is unable to fill a new hire position at AA in accordance with Paragraph III.A. above, due to a training freeze or other operational constraint, (see Paragraph III.J. below), such CJ Captain will be placed on the AA Pilots Seniority List and will count toward the number of new hire positions. The pilot’s AA occupational seniority date and number will be established as if he were able to fill such new hire position at AA and had attended the new hire training class referenced in Paragraph III.A. above. Such pilot’s length of service for pay purposes, date of hire for pension purposes, and length of service for vacation accrual will be established in accordance with III.C. below. The number of such CJ Captains will not exceed the difference between the number of CJ Captains who are able to fill new hire positions at AA and the number of new hire positions which must be offered to CJ Captains in accordance with Paragraph III.A. above.

C. A CJ Captain’s (1) placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List (except as provided in Paragraph III.B. above which is only applicable for placement on the AA Pilots Seniority List in order to establish an AA occupational seniority date and number), (2) length of service for pay purposes, and (3) “date of hire” for pension purposes will be based on the date such pilot is entered on the AA payroll. Such pilot’s length of service for vacation accrual will be based on the cumulative total of the pilot’s service at AMR Eagle, Inc. and AA.

D. If a CJ Captain is placed on the AA Pilots Seniority List per III.B. above, such CJ Captain will receive priority based on his AA seniority in filling a new hire position in the next new hire class, following release from a training freeze or other AMR Eagle, Inc. imposed operational constraint. Such CJ Captains will not count toward the number of new hire positions offered to CJ Captains at AMR Eagle, Inc., under Paragraph III.A. above.
__________________

 

[TCAS]

TCAS,

You apparently have not taken the time to actually even read Supplement W or Letter 3....

How about you do a little research before you spew your BS. The reality is none of this matters because there will be no more flow throughs to AA, but I hate your attempt to give misinformation.

Geez Cleared Direct lighten up before you blow a gasket!

I made a simple mistake in a lengthy post and I stand corrected... But in no way was I "attempting to give misinformation" or "spew BS." Could you not simply post the correction and leave out the childishly snide remarks?

As a matter of fact I have read Letter 3/Supp W since I work under the same 16 year contract as you do.

Since I do know who you are the next time we cross paths I promise I'll give you the opportunity to express your hate at my attempt to answer a question in person. In the meantime I suggest you tone down your virulent postings. You're making all of us at Eagle look bad.

TCAS