American 587 Final Report

[SWA/FO]

I agree, what a bunch of bull$hit!

 

[LearLove]

"NTSB (news - web sites) investigator Robert Benzon said Molin's use of the rudder was "unnecessary and aggressive." He said the only time pilots should use the rudder is when they're landing or taking off in a crosswind, which was not the case for Flight 587.

"The rest of the time, your feet should be on the floor," he said. "



is this guy for real?

 

[80drvr]

"NTSB (news - web sites) investigator Robert Benzon said Molin's use of the rudder was "unnecessary and aggressive." He said the only time pilots should use the rudder is when they're landing or taking off in a crosswind, which was not the case for Flight 587.

"The rest of the time, your feet should be on the floor," he said. "



is this guy for real?

And don't forget that the Airbus procedure for landing gear not down and locked called for rudder reversal. I guess the guy who wrote that didn't check with the next cubicle. For the sake of the pilots involved, it's too bad that the tail didn't come off while they were doing an Airbus approved procedure instead of a wake turbulence recovery.

 

[ALPO]

Add NTSB to the long list of corrupt list of gov. agencies, this is so blatant it’s pathetic.
“Don’t touch the controls or you’ll break the airplane” Va is Va, this crap about multiple opposite movements is just that, CRAP!!

 

[Singlecoil]

Va is Va, you're right. Va is the speed at which the airplane will stall before exceeding its design limit when subjected to positive g's.

A lot of us learned that you could do whatever you wanted with the controls and the airplane wouldn't be damaged as long as you were at or under Va for your current weight. That is false.

The airplane can still be overstressed by negative g's at Va, and as we have learned in this case, by sideloads. The first recurrent I had after this accident contained an excellent analysis of sideloads and tail forces. In a nutshell, a fullscale deflection moves the rudder and aerodynamic forces (the slipstream) put a load on the vertical stabilizer. This in and of itself would not be that big a deal, but if you apply a fullscale deflection in the opposite direction on the rudder at that moment, then the preceding aerodynamic load is added on top of the new horizontal lift of the applied rudder movement which can result in a combined force that can exceed the design limit of the vertical stablizer. It was very eye opening, and made me thankful I was flying a Douglas airplane.

 

[igneousy2]

I've been through the AA advanced maneuvering program and I have to say that overall it is a very good program. The reason they started the program is because the NTSB felt that pilots were losing their piloting skills especially during unusal attitude recovery. The NTSB reports stated that the program emphasized utilizing rudder in control recovery. This is true HOWEVER it was because of THEIR recommendation that this program was even instituted in the first place. The recommendations came from the 737 accidents several years ago. Not the final reports as they eventually found it to be a mechanical design problem, but in the process of investigating they found that when recovering from an upset, pilots were flying with their feet flat on the floor. AAmp covered a host of issues, one of them was crossover speed. Crossover speed is the speed at which any higher speed has the ailerons more effective than the rudder, any lower speed has the rudder more effective at roll control than the ailerons. The moral of the story is to not forget to use the rudder when trying to recover from a roll upset and not be afraid to utilize the flight controls to there fullest to recover from an unusal attitude.

I disagree with the NTSB's findings that the pilots need to be trained to not over control...that is B.S. Maybe we need to temper our responses in the interim but the airplane should always be able to handle a full deflection (from the pilots perspective) when in a critical phase of flight. Manufacturers/airlines need to strengthen the tails of these airplanes in the long term.

Not releated to this subject but another useful thing about crossover speed is it tells you that if you have a jammed rudder (full deflection) you should speed up to allow the ailerons to overpower the rudder and if you have a jammed aileron you should slow down to allow the rudder to overpower the ailerons.

Later

 

[DetoXJ]

My few good encounters with wake just after takeoff have always resulted in roll disruption only where quick aileron correction did the job. I'm not trying to 2nd guess anybody's actions here but I am trying to make sense out of agressive back and forth rudder inputs. I have never experienced a significant disruption in Yaw during a wake encounter, just roll.

 

[FastCargo]

Other rudder issues

Interesting discussion...

I read that article about rudder application in a sideslip in the FedEx hub...very eye opening!

A couple of points here. First, we are still learning about the long term wear patterns of large composite structures in aircraft. Aluminum, steel, titanium, etc, we have lots of data on (sometimes gathered the hard way). Composites, I'm not so sure about...for all their advantages in design and flight, computers still don't have all the answers. There hasn't been an aircraft designed (yet) where the engineers have anticipated EVERY failure mode.

Second, there have been numerous instances of aircraft that have either been designed with too little vertical stab (early F-100s), or loss of same (XB-70) has caused loss of aircraft. For swept wing aircraft that require a rudder/vert stab, loss of said device usually results in a crash.

The good thing, there have been developments to help recover an aircraft with flight control damage. So called 'adaptive' flight control logic would basically self diagnose a problem (say a loss of an aileron), and reset the other controls to auto compensate for the loss without additional input from the pilot. We're still pretty far away from commerical implementation...

Fly Safe,
FastCargo

 

[DetoXJ]

My few good encounters with wake just after takeoff have always resulted in roll disruption only where quick aileron correction did the job. I'm not trying to 2nd guess anybody's actions here but I am trying to make sense out of agressive back and forth rudder inputs. I have never experienced a significant disruption in Yaw during a wake encounter, just roll.

 

[enigma]

While I'm not certain that the FO's action caused the rudder movement, it is most certainly possible for such movements to break off the VS. AW&ST covered this accident extensively and showed pretty conclusively that the VS is NOT designed, nor required, to withstand full rudder deflection when in a state of yaw. The VS strength requirement assumes that the rudder is deflected from zero yaw. If the aircraft is yawed over, and full opposite rudder is applied, the stab bends or breaks off.

This was NOT the fault of the pilot. He operated the aircraft in a manner according to his training. The NTSB should be ashamed.

Or maybe they're covering up something. Ya think? The Government wouldn't want to avoid mass hysteria concerning sabatoge, after September 11, would they? The airplane had spent some time in the Dominican Republic, if I remember, the same place that is so un-secure that just last week, a teen age was able to stow away in the wheel well of another AA airplane. Makes ya wonder.

BTW, I'm not suggesting an explosion. I saw the pictures of the stab and the tailcone attach lugs. The VS definately broke off. I just wonder if had been weaked in some way, because the composite broke cleanly instead of shredding as overstressed composite tends to do.

enigma

 

[Cathay747400]

Two things

First; I knew Sten Molin, he was an awfully nice guy and it is tragic what happened to him. God rest his soul. Second; Airbus builds garbage-period. Can anyone tell me another time this has happened or any time this has happened to a boeing? There is concrete evidenvce that said there was a problem on A300-600 V/S assemblies NO? But creating mass hysteria, Airbus would be shut down and all there would be would be Boeing's, **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** what a shame that would be! I remember they grounded the DC-10's after AA in ORD so why not the A300-600? Not even built here. I could go on but never mind.

 

[Cathay747400]

Interesting

I didn't put anything in my post that is censored. Don't know why that came up like that. Odd.

 

[N8Dogg]

It is starting to look like Airbus and/or American have the NTSB in their back pocket. Airbus needs to rethink their design and American needs to re-evaluate their training program. Let the deceased rest with honor.

 

[Steve]

Anyone think American will buy any more Airbus aircraft after such a finding?

 

[Freddie Spencer]

Second; Airbus builds garbage-period.

How come then your company buying them like hotcakes?

 

[Muddauber]

The pilot's taking an unfair shot. The AirBus 300's vertical fin is completely composite, to include the attachment clevis which extends into the metal empennage. It's a fragile assembly as Northwest is just now discovering trying to maintain their 15 year-old A300's.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

???

WTFO!
You freakin' morons have to be kidding me! Every stinkin AA pilot must have left their n\/ts in Judy Tarver's or the Kude's mouth. Absolutely pathetic. Sten's feet may or may not have made those movements, look at the ntsb reconsruction video. Can you say Airbus yaw damper. How do they know when the tail departed the aircraft? Couldn't the THUMP have been the tail ALREADY beginning to depart the AC? What's the puff of smoke on the tollbooth video? Yeah fuel, sure it is! What about the witnesses that said the fuselage was on fire? Why did the FDR stop recording? look at the pictures from the gas stations. Sure looks like something was burning, and check the other photo showing the airbus repair. Looks like a shiester tail fix if I ever saw one. This entire thing has more holes than my sisters bachelorette party.

And the APA emits barely a whimper. You pr1ks are pathetic. I truly hope the APA pilots get what they deserve, first a nix to the retirement, and then Chapter 7.

Rot in He11 NTSB, Airbus, APA, and AMR.

Perhaps in my next post I'll tell everyone how I really feel.

-FF

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Perhaps in my next post I'll tell everyone how I really feel.

-FF

I doubt anyone really gives a fark how you really feel. I sure as sh!t don't.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

Listen P1ssant

Ok Twit,

How about responding to the observations in my post? Of course not. You're not smart enough to do anything like that. But of course....you will post a story smearing a pilot. Arpey, Hunter, Hunt, Breslin, Sizemore, Darrah? is that you? Nah, you're probably just some disgruntled little CFI or an RJ FO that thinks he has all the answers and that the NTSB and the company are his friends. Reap the rewards of this great career you little blue water swimmer you, you deserve it.

-FF

 

[8vATE]

Airbus builds garbage-period. Can anyone tell me another time this has happened or any time this has happened to a boeing? .

Well you asked...

USAirways 427
United Airlines Colorado Springs...
Eastwinds 737 Trenton, NJ which practically rolled on its back.

An extremely poorly designed 737 rudder system that has been mandated for redesign/mods..

Not to mention one 737 that exploded on the ground and one 747 midair explosion attributed to poorly designed ACM/center tank fuel system overheating..

Boeing has their skeletons in their closet also....

Looks to me that the AMR "Academy" has their share of blame in this accident...