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American 587 Final Report

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8vATE said:
Well you asked...

USAirways 427
United Airlines Colorado Springs...
Eastwinds 737 Trenton, NJ which practically rolled on its back.

An extremely poorly designed 737 rudder system that has been mandated for redesign/mods..

Not to mention one 737 that exploded on the ground and one 747 midair explosion attributed to poorly designed ACM/center tank fuel system overheating..

Boeing has their skeletons in their closet also....

Looks to me that the AMR "Academy" has their share of blame in this
accident...
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not familiar with Eastwinds incident but weren't the UAL 737 and USAir 737 NTSB accident reports technically inconclusive? I know they "think" they know what happened but can't say with absolute certainty regarding the rudder hardover scenarios...
 
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Muddauber said:
The AirBus 300's vertical fin is completely composite, to include the attachment clevis which extends into the metal empennage. It's a fragile assembly as Northwest is just now discovering trying to maintain their 15 year-old A300's.
????????

Northwest does not have any A300's. Only A320's, 319's, & 330's. A different animal altogether.

v2
 
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USAir 427

habubuaza said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not familiar with Eastwinds incident but weren't the UAL 737 and USAir 737 NTSB accident reports technically inconclusive? I know they "think" they know what happened but can't say with absolute certainty regarding the rudder hardover scenarios...
There's a fairly interesting book by the lead NTSB investigator into the USAir 427 Crash. The Myster of Flight 427 Inside a Crash Investigation by Bill Adair. It's been awhile since I read it, but if I recall correctly, after a number of tests and simulations, they discovered that the rudder control valve from that aircraft would reverse, and go hard over to the direction opposite of the pressed pedal.
 
V2+10 said:
????????

Northwest does not have any A300's. Only A320's, 319's, & 330's. A different animal altogether.

v2
Either way, I would bet the later model Airbus airframes have a higher % of composites than the A-300s....including the empennage.
 
habubuaza said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not familiar with Eastwinds incident but weren't the UAL 737 and USAir 737 NTSB accident reports technically inconclusive? I know they "think" they know what happened but can't say with absolute certainty regarding the rudder hardover scenarios...

I think the only question left is exactly why the rudder PCU occasionally acts the way it does, not that it was the cause of the crashes.

Had it been an aircraft of less popular design I feel that the entire fleet would have been grounded until a fix was available.

From your profile you should be very aware of what changes in procedure and design that those accidents had on the 737. The interesting thing about the 73 is that everybody operating them knew what the cause was and trained for it every six months.......3 years before the "official" NTSB final report came out saying what the cause was and had a "fix" for it.

I personally feel given the training that we did on the 73 at the time that it was an entirely political/economic decision to let them keep flying during that period, after all, if it had been grounded it would have put SWA out of business and severly hurt the rest of the airlines as well as Boeing.

As it is, it has not really been fixed so to speak just negated through training and operating procedures. That Barber pole sticker on the guarded switch for the B Hyd. system, and the flap config speeds that you use are not "factory original".

So yes, while I am not a big fan of Airbus, Boeing too has some skeletons in the closet.
 
KeroseneSnorter said:
I think the only question left is exactly why the rudder PCU occasionally acts the way it does, not that it was the cause of the crashes.

Had it been an aircraft of less popular design I feel that the entire fleet would have been grounded until a fix was available.

From your profile you should be very aware of what changes in procedure and design that those accidents had on the 737. The interesting thing about the 73 is that everybody operating them knew what the cause was and trained for it every six months.......3 years before the "official" NTSB final report came out saying what the cause was and had a "fix" for it.

I personally feel given the training that we did on the 73 at the time that it was an entirely political/economic decision to let them keep flying during that period, after all, if it had been grounded it would have put SWA out of business and severly hurt the rest of the airlines as well as Boeing.

As it is, it has not really been fixed so to speak just negated through training and operating procedures. That Barber pole sticker on the guarded switch for the B Hyd. system, and the flap config speeds that you use are not "factory original".

So yes, while I am not a big fan of Airbus, Boeing too has some skeletons in the closet.
Actually I am very familiar with the design changes on the 737 but all I'm saying is that there is no proof positive of rudder hardover = plane falls out of the sky. Our training focuses on upset recovery.
 
FlyingFarmer said:
Ok Twit,

How about responding to the observations in my post? Of course not. You're not smart enough to do anything like that. But of course....you will post a story smearing a pilot. Arpey, Hunter, Hunt, Breslin, Sizemore, Darrah? is that you? Nah, you're probably just some disgruntled little CFI or an RJ FO that thinks he has all the answers and that the NTSB and the company are his friends. Reap the rewards of this great career you little blue water swimmer you, you deserve it.

-FF
Hey FF-

Jerry Springer just called, he's missing one of his guests...

Go back to your rock now, play time is over.

aa73
 
"Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm not familiar with Eastwinds incident but weren't the UAL 737 and USAir 737 NTSB accident reports technically inconclusive? I know they "think" they know what happened but can't say with absolute certainty regarding the rudder hardover scenarios..."

No, there is nothing inconclusive about the UAL and USAIR crashes. The NTSB investigation into United Airlines flight 585 was relatively brief and originally recorded as one of the only mass disaster accidents in existence that did not have a probable cause. The investigation of flight 585 was re-opened and the cause determined to be a rudder hardover following the crash of USAir 427 and discovery of the propensity of the 737 rudder control system to fail. Specifically, when the secondary slide (part number 680101) in the PCU dual concentric servo valve fails, the rudder is going hardover.


 
Hey AA73

Enjoy the furlough Loser, in another thread you mention you never voted, well way to go, you like many get what you deserve. As a man
sows........

The Jerry Springer comment cracked me up. So are you saying that it's
ok to have an entire MEC roll over like a horny teenage girl and let an FO be trashed? Let's see, you're probably a LGA boy so what did old "Oscar" Mayer have to say about the NTSB conclusions?

He said......"more on that later." That's it Sammy boy? That's all you gotta say? Man, I hope the LCC's steamroller AA into the ground, because you pilots get what you deserve.

Pathetic, what a sell out he turned out to be. Hey watch out Sammy, you especially better help keep the company clear of lawsuits, if AMR loses any more douhg, you might get displaced. AA73, if you're saying that I need to crawl back under a rock, you obviously believe the NTSB is correct. What do you base this on? Have you looked at the photo? Have you seen the videos? AA's hiring practices are absolutely amazing, how do they do it. How can so many losers be hired by one airline, and then to buy TWA?! Oh man....It's almost funny if it weren't so pathetic. The Molin family should sue AA, APA, and AMR.
But that's why Sam and the APA pissident write what they write, To help protect AMR. I hope Sammy "The Sellout" Mayer and Greg
"I enjoy it in my boygina" Overman can sleep at night.

May the pilots of AMR
(and because I said "AMR" that means not all of them)
live in interesting times.

Buh-Bye Loser, I'll make sure none of you Sky Naziis get hired at my company.

-FF
 
Actually I just got a hug. It was from your father, on an SFO overnight. He was dressed up like Donna Summer looking for
some hot stuff baby tonight. I sure you're wired just like him.

Now those that care read this. See the following, thrill at the the condemnation! Stand in amazement at the strength! Be a witness to the massive determination! Be astounded at the incredible fortitude that is possessed by the pilots of AMR as they vehemtly protect their own dead comrades!

October 28, 2004

Honorable Ellen Engleman Connors
Chairman, National Transportation Safety Board
490 L'Enfant Plaza East, S.W.
Washington, DC 20594

Re: Investigation of American Airlines Flight 587

Dear Chairman Engleman Connors,

The Allied Pilots Association (APA) would like to commend and thank the National Transportation Safety Board for their investigative acumen and diligence in the investigation into the crash of American flight 587. We agree with the safety recommendations proposed by the Board and hope that they are implemented expeditiously.

The APA takes issue, however, with the assertion that the prior investigation into the American flight 903 accident has no relation to the 587 accident. The only reason that there is no relation between the two is because the Board's analysis of the 903 accident was incomplete. It is an incontrovertible fact that the Board unknowingly used filtered digital flight data to investigate the 903 accident. The entire analysis of the accident, based upon DFDR data, is questionable. It would have been impossible for the Board to conduct a complete analysis using filtered data. Furthermore, the Board was not informed of loads calculations performed by the manufacturer which showed that the aircraft may have exceeded ultimate load. The manufacturer's memo dated 16 June 1997 clearly speaks of loads approaching, and perhaps exceeding, ultimate. This knowledge would have triggered a much more thorough investigation from any investigative authority. It seems contradictory that the Safety Board, an agency that prides itself on complete and thorough investigations, would propose that knowledge of loads possibly exceeding ultimate in a primary structure would not have led to sufficient investigation to precisely determine those loads. Such an investigation would have revealed the rudder reversals due to the extraordinary sensitively of the A300-600 rudder control system, thus providing an opportunity for the Board to issue flight 587's eight recommendations seven years ago.

The APA is not asserting malfeasance by the Safety Board. The Board did not have the required information to perform an effective analysis. The attached System Safety Model clearly shows how the investigation in the 903 accident should have progressed had the Board possessed all available information. Based upon these facts, the Allied Pilots Association feels that it is disingenuous to assert that there is no relationship between the flight 903 accident and the flight 587 accident. As safety professionals, it is incumbent upon us to look at facts and admit our shortcomings. Though cursorily easy to deny a 903/587 relationship based upon the argument of "20/20 hindsight", it is not easy to deny that the Board's investigation into the 903 accident was incomplete. The flight 903 aircraft flew for five years with a damaged tail after an investigation by the National Transportation Safety Board that was incomplete due to the lack of relevant information.

We are not asking the NTSB to place blame upon any party. We are asking the Board to acknowledge that their investigation into the flight 903 accident was incomplete. Had a thorough, accurate and complete investigation been performed, a different conclusion is highly likely as the System Safety Model shows. Again, please bear in mind that the APA is not impugning the Board's investigation into the flight 903 accident. We are simply requesting acknowledgement of the facts which limited the Board's ability to accurately assess the severity of the accident and control future hazards.

Please consider these facts when generating the Board's statement concerning the relationship between the incomplete investigation into flight 903 and the flight 587 tragedy.

Very respectfully,

Ralph Hunter
President

Enclosure

cc: Vice Chairman Rosenker
Member Carmody
Member Healing
--------------------------------------------------------

Notice that Ralphy Hunter practically kisses the NTSB starfish. These guys raise pathetic to a new level. Get off your belly sissy boys of the APA. Stand by the BLOOD of two fellow pilots whose good name has been drug through the mud. Because guys like you were too frightened to actually stand up like MEN and say, you cannot say this.
"We take Issue" and how about "we are not impugning" this is truly the death of outrage. Hunter! Get up off the floor! You're belly is in the mud, you're on your hands and knees BEGGING to have them reach a different conclusion. You and the rest of the APA minions are so busy wringing your hands and nashing your teeth you can't even wipe the tears from your eyes to see the truth! You have no principle, no guts, and no "gonauds".......you know what, forget it. You guys are a lost cause, if this is all the public outcry this develops. The profession is truly doomed. The pilots of AMR will sell their souls to the devil.

May God save you all.
 
ThankYou Cathay...

Airbus builds garbage-period.
**************************

Finally someone who has the cajones to admit this fact!!....
 
FlyingFarmer said:
Hey AA73

Enjoy the furlough Loser, in another thread you mention you never voted, well way to go, you like many get what you deserve. As a man
sows........

The Jerry Springer comment cracked me up. So are you saying that it's
ok to have an entire MEC roll over like a horny teenage girl and let an FO be trashed? Let's see, you're probably a LGA boy so what did old "Oscar" Mayer have to say about the NTSB conclusions?

Try as you might, you ain't gonna get a rise out of me Farmer Boy. I've paid enough dues to be swayed by trash talking youngsters such as yourself.

Already got a job somewhat lined up (no, not the Flowback), so as much as I'd hate turning down a job offer at your company, I have to move on to better things.

Keep on hating the world, and you'll turn old pretty quick my friend.

aa73

P.S. the Springer comment was meant to poke some humor at your irate rantings, no need to get all defensive about it.
 
Just an interesting observation - I had a crashpad in Belle Harbor - where the crash site was - and my landlord saw the airplane as it crashed. She lived about 4 streets over where the fuselage crashed.

She and other locals saw the airplane on fire as it was descending to the ground. She said the investigators, once they found out what they observed, didn't want to hear anything they said.

Am I suggesting anything? No. Just relaying what I was told from a high drama New Yorker.
 
crazee8 said:
Just an interesting observation - I had a crashpad in Belle Harbor - where the crash site was - and my landlord saw the airplane as it crashed. She lived about 4 streets over where the fuselage crashed.

She and other locals saw the airplane on fire as it was descending to the ground. She said the investigators, once they found out what they observed, didn't want to hear anything they said.

Am I suggesting anything? No. Just relaying what I was told from a high drama New Yorker.
Without its vertical stab providing yaw stability, it is entirely conceivable that the aircraft started a rotation around the yaw axis which could produce an load on the engine mountings unlike any they were designed to withstand. Thus, they break off yanking fuel lines, hydraulics etc. It is certainly possible for a fire to have propagated and have been quite visible during the last seconds of the doomed jets time aloft.

Being high drama doesn't mean that the witness is blind, too bad the G-men don't want to hear the truth.

Before anyone chimes in with a comment about the engine mountings being "break-away", that feature is designed to allow an engine to depart without further damage, if the engine is producing massive vibrational forces. In the AA587 accident, the forces most likely yanked the pylon off completely.

BigMoney
 

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