Am West won't allow 190 regional flying

[Mike man]

I'm the last person who wants a regional to fly 190's...it would be like flying my own future away from myself, and my fellow regional pilots, and the mainline people out of a job.

I'm just saying it is a double standard...you can fly 90 seat CRJ's but not 90 seat ERJ's. 90 seats is 90 seats, but since the 190 looks like an Airbus/737 it isn't the same. If America West pilots don't want regionals flying 90 seat jets thats just fine, but why not negotiate small jet flying back into the scope of all mainline--or is to below mainline to fly small jets? Or does mainline want to fly 90 seat jets or 70 seat jets, but only the ones that look like mainline jets and leave the CRJ900/CRJ700 flying to regionals? What gives where is the line drawn? Apparently its based on how the airplane looks...looks like a 737=mainline , not looking like 737=regional.

But like I said before I don't want to fly 190 for Republic...I'm taking my own future from myself by flying 190's at Republic. I want to fly 190's for Delta or NWA. I like my job at Chautauqua, on the 145, but I would like to move on and interview again(!) and move on someday to bigger and better things at a mainline airline.

 

[shroomwell]

I'm the last person who wants a regional to fly 190's...it would be like flying my own future away from myself, and my fellow regional pilots, and the mainline people out of a job.

I'm just saying it is a double standard...you can fly 90 seat CRJ's but not 90 seat ERJ's. 90 seats is 90 seats, but since the 190 looks like an Airbus/737 it isn't the same. If America West pilots don't want regionals flying 90 seat jets thats just fine, but why not negotiate small jet flying back into the scope of all mainline--or is to below mainline to fly small jets? Or does mainline want to fly 90 seat jets or 70 seat jets, but only the ones that look like mainline jets and leave the CRJ900/CRJ700 flying to regionals? What gives where is the line drawn? Apparently its based on how the airplane looks...looks like a 737=mainline , not looking like 737=regional.

But like I said before I don't want to fly 190 for Republic...I'm taking my own future from myself by flying 190's at Republic. I want to fly 190's for Delta or NWA. I like my job at Chautauqua, on the 145, but I would like to move on and interview again(!) and move on someday to bigger and better things at a mainline airline.

Too bad Mike aint going to happen. Thank you republic. Oh lets not forget ALPA, thanks ALPO.

 

[General Lee]

Mike,


That's the spirit. At least you aren't one of those lazy a$$ RJDC members who want bigger planes without leaving their own companies, so they don't have to give up weekends off or their 4 week vacations in Myrtle Beach.


As far as ALPA or ALPO-----they will have a lot of tough negotiating coming up for sure.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[SpacemanSpiff]

about the CRJ900s

The reason that the America West Pilots could not stop the CRJ9s from going to Mesa is that they did not have ANY scope protection in their previous CBA. When they signed their latest CBA, a year or so ago, then they bargained for some scope protection.

So, to answer your question, there is no difference to them between the CRJ9 and the E190 flying. They want it all, but with the CRJ9s it is a little too late (for now anyway).

Spiff

 

[eastflier]

When was the last time you were on a CRJ900. Some of them have first class, and yes unless you are 6'8'' you can stand up on them.

 

[surplus1]

The regionals don't have to be the only ones flying the 70-100 seat range. Look at Air Canada, fresh out of bankruptcy. They were forced to SPLIT the 70-100 range flying, with JAZZ flying the CR9s, and Air Canada Mainline flying the new Emb175s. There could be deals like that made, to soften the blow for ALPA. Heck, ALPA negotiated that deal with Air Canada. The rates would be lower, but mainline jobs are worth the preservation, before they are gone. I would fly the E175 from the left seat, as long as I could have Fins or Surplus1 as my FO. First and 4th beers are on me. (you get 2nd and 3rd)

Bye Bye--General Lee

General, I gotta congratulate ya; you're almost as good a propagandist as that fellow Herman Goering. Actually I think you missed your calling, instead of being a pilot you would have done better as a clergyman. In the absence of fact and credibility you have a remarkable ability to dazzle a congregation with bullsh_it. Additionally you have the same target as the clergy - a multitude of the uniformed that you can easily bamboozle with a whole "book" of nonsense which they, subsequent to your sermon, flock to believe as truth, eager to sacrifice themselves on the altar of your personal benefit.

You really are good, and I mean it. Little by little, by perpetually preaching variants of the same garbage, from the same book of mythology, you convince the majority of the flock of young regional pilots that you are their mentor, you can in fact walk on water, and if only they will accept your concept of the way to salvation by sacrificing themselves on the altar of your future well being, the cathedral of mainline will grow bigger and open for them a pathway to heaven itself. You will remain the self-annointed high priest and they, poor bas_tards, will have the honor of becoming members of your congregation and thereby your servants at sometime in the unknown future. You should have your own chapter in the book of revelations.

That you are a false prophet who would take their humble victuals for your own gratification is of no consequence to them. Your church of mainline welfare (at their expense) remains full of the beguiled, yearning faithfully to ride your ancient chariots and join the ranks of your decaying empire for the presumed privilege of sharing somehow in what you tell them, and they have come to believe, is the nectar of the gods of aviation.

It's a good plan and you do well to emulate it. Hundreds of millions have been duped for centuries into tything for the wellfare of the clergy. Why shouldn't small airplane pilots tythe for the welfare of of big airplane pilots? After all, as long as they continue to do so and you can convince them that having big airplanes of their own is more detrimental to them than it is beneficial to you, your security as the high priest will be guaranteed at the expense of their own security being left in limbo.

As you correctly point out, "The regionals don't have to be the only ones flying the 70-100 seat range." They could (after all) be forced to "split" them with you. "They" (meaning the unwashed) could be "granted" (by you the washed) the privilege of flying those models that you don't care for, whilst you select those that you prefer for youself. You will condescend to allow youself to come down (temporarily of course) to the "left seat of a E175", provided of course that folks like me are willing to come down to its right seat and share in your martyrdom. This will preserve your job and that is good, even if it happens at the expense of my job. It is to you unthinkable that I should not recognize the great benefit that I will derive (NOT) from giving to you that which I could have for myself. As they say, "there's a sucker born every day", and you would sooner have it be me than you. Noble, my man, noble! Trouble is I have learned to think as you do; I have finally learned at your feet that the only policy I should follow is the policy that you follow, i.e., what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine too.

I have a better idea (for me)! I think just like you now --- the majors don't have to be the only ones flying the 70- 130 seat range (yes, I deliberately changed the higher number). There could be "deals like that made" --- "to soften the blow for ALPA". We could "split" the flying with them. Why not give them all the 50-seaters (for the good of ALPA) so that they can "preserve the mainline jobs" and we'll just fly the 70-130 seaters.

My "brother" we don't need to make no "deal". Economics and the free market will make it for us. You want to fly those airplanes, bid for them! You and your ALPA created the RFP, so now you can live with it like the rest of us. Go ahead and underbid us, like the U pilots did, and you'll get your "MDA" equivalent just like they did.

Years ago I predicted that ALPA's policy (which is the policy of "mainline groups") would create a bidding war and you would become a part of it, to your own ultimate detriment. You laughed and vowed to crush the pesants under your heel. Well, it turns out you didn't crush the peseants, the Achilles heel was yours, and now we are there; On the threshold of a bidding war. You could have had ALL the jobs, were it not for your superiority complex and your greed. Now you want to "split" with us, that which you failed to take from us outright; fascinating.

Why should we "split" anything with you when you would not even agree to to speak with us with a civil tongue? Why should I agree to fly in your right seat when I can fly the same thing in my own left seat; because you want me to? Because it will "preserve" your job? Sorry buddy, the job that I need to preserve is my own, not yours. I'm a good student General and I've had a good teacher. ALPA and the likes of you have taught me how to be a son of a B. You want my flying; go ahead and bid for it, just like ALPA (which is people like you) has forced me to do.

We did not descriminate against you my friend, it was you that decided to segregate us. It was you that created the separate drinking fountains, restrooms and luch counters. You were certain that it would keep us begging you for vittles and calling you "Massah". You were wrong, and now you want to "share". Share what? Spare me the snake oil sales pitch; that potion has already made me sick one time too many. You scoped us out of your lives, literally. Now quit pandering to us under false pretense. You didn't want any part of us then and you don't want any part of us now. You still want the same things you always did; the exclusive right to dictate our future without our consent.

You failed on your previous attempts, so now you're back at smooth talking the uninitiated and peddling the same crap with a different lable, to a new flock of come-lately novitiates who have not had the experience to recognize your true motives. You're preaching the same old sermon, "help us to preserve the mainline jobs; we're doing this for your benefit so they will be there for you in the future; don't fly those airplanes, let us fly them and we'll cut a deal with you, we'll share it". BullSh_it!

You'll catch the gullible with that song, as evidenced by the replies you get on this thread. Hopefully they'll wise up before it's too late and realize what you're really trying to do - take as much as you can, however you can, for your own benefit and to their detriment.

There is no better evidence than the current efforts of the U/MDA pilots demanding super seniority at CHQ/REP; demanding yet another J4J abomination on deal they already made and now want to renig on. Now we have the AWA pilots chiming in and seizing on what they see as a new opportuinity to try again to do what they failed previously to accomplish. It doesn't have a dam_ned thing to do with the shape of the airplane or the fact that its a CRJ900/EMB175 or EMB190. If they can succeed in taking any or all of them, they'll do it in a hearbeat and you and I both know it. The fact that you and others like you can convince a few gullible novitiates that you're really "looking out for their welfare" changes nothing, especially not the reality of your true intent.

If tomorrow, you folks at Delta could convince your company to take all the 70-seat and larger aircraft from ASA/CMR/SKYW and CHQ and give them to you, you would do it without the slightest hesitation and you nor ALPA wouldn't spend 5 minutes worrying about what happens to the pilots that now fly them. Not only would you do it, you would not give those pilots any seniority at your company and you would not even consider giving them "super seniority". You know that and I know that. The only difference between us is that I have the courage to say it out loud and you don't.

I'm calling your hand Mr. Preacher. Spare us the snake oil sermons and let's see the cards you have up your sleeve as well as the marked ones in your hand. Tell the truth and acknowledge that the Church of ALPA is a house of bigotry that favors your kind at the expense of my kind. A facade for your protection at my expense that takes my money under false pretenses.

Yep, you pushed my button and I know that you meant to. I give you credit where credit is due. Like I said, you'd make a better clergyman or used car salesman (same difference) than a pilot. You missed your calling.

Nothing personal General, and I mean that. I'm sure you're a nice guy on a personal level and if it were possible, which it isn't, I don't doubt that we'd have a ball flying with each other, regardless of who sits where. I know that I wouldn't have any problem pulling your gear or doing your preflights on cold days. I'm sure you could teach me a whole lot about what not to do . Do you think you could really handle doing the same for me?

 

[labbats]

Cliff notes for the novel above, please.

 

[PCL_128]

Holy crap Surplus, you've got to learn how to condense those posts. There just isn't enough time in the day to read some of your posts.

 

[surplus1]

PCL-128,

I agree they are longer than they ought to be. However, when regional pilots learn to broaden their span of attention they will do better at protecting their interests instead of merely conceding them to another fly trap set for them by the well wishers at the "mainline".

The AWA pilots are posturing and the General is singing his same old songs. While he whistles "Dixie" the kids that were recruited yesterday are willing to strike the Union flag and give him their swords.

It takes both time and effort to "pay attention". When you don't, you lose your a$$.

Besides, I like to pull the General's chain and he likes to pull mine. I notice that he is now offereing some KY along with the planned screwing, but I ain't bending over.

 

[PCL_128]

Oh, we're all paying attention Surplus. Some of us just find your propaganda more disturbing than the General's. A question though: have you not said in the past that you wear a platinum ALPA pin? If you are so disenchanted with that "union flag," then why are you involved with the Association at all?

 

[BoilerUP]

Surplus,

How would AmWest securing E-190 flying be detrimental to regional pilots?

 

[surplus1]

Are they going to hire regional pilots to fly them?

Maybe it would help me if you told me what benefit YOU expect to get from that?

Meanwhile back at the ranch, 25 airplanes and 250 potential jobs will be "lost" at Republic along with 125 upgrades. If you don't think that's detrimental to that airline and its pilots, then I guess you haven't been around this business long enough to know which side is up.

 

[BenderGonzales]

SOMEBODY has to benefit from new airplanes. As a result, somebody else will NOT benefit.

May the best negotiator win.

 

[GogglesPisano]

All flying belongs to mainline pilots. They may choose to allow their employer to subcontract less desirable flying in smaller aircraft if they choose. But basically it all belongs to them.

How does flying "belong" to mainline pilots, you ask? Because of thei CBA and their SCOPE LANGUAGE.

Keep it in the family AWA!

 

[BoilerUP]

Surplus,

I have not been around the industry as long as you or some others that contribue to this board, but I fail to see how 25 airplanes, 250 pilots and 125 upgrades are "lost" to RAH if those planes are scoped by AmWest because these planes are not there yet. Those planes at RAH would allow the rapid growth to continue (which would benefit me and people like me), but the same argument could be made for flying 737s, Airbusses, etc. The only difference is the E170 is at RAH and the 737/A320 is at mainline. RAH will continue to grow in the 70-seat market in the next 2-3 years, while some 50-seaters will go away. The growth *will* slow there, and while that'll make for slower upgrades, growth at mainline should allow for attrition upwards, which will compensate some for the slowing growth at the regional level.

 

[surplus1]

Oh, we're all paying attention Surplus. Some of us just find your propaganda more disturbing than the General's.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

A question though: have you not said in the past that you wear a platinum ALPA pin? If you are so disenchanted with that "union flag," then why are you involved with the Association at all?

You missed the connection between "Dixie" and "Union"; a play on words. I wasn't talking about ALPA, I was talking about surrender. Sorry to be so confusing, but thanks for paying attention anyway.

The platinum pin is past tense; I don't wear one, I once wore one. I'm not disenchated with the union (ALPA), it's the finest organization of its kind. I'm disenchanted with its leadership, which I believe has perverted its mission and misdirected its policies to the detriment of us all. I'm involved because I care about that.

It's much like my country. I love my country; I despise its current administration. That doesn't mean I want to destroy my country or become a citizen of another country; it means I want to correct the things I see as wrong and put the country back on a better course.

The same thing applies to ALPA. I think that 1625 Mass. Ave. has been occupied by the wrong people for way too many years. I would like to see them all replaced by a new breed of forward looking thinkers better equipped to deal with the problems of today and those of the future. I abhor the favoritism, descrimination and bad faith that has been entrenched for years. I seek reform and a return to an Association that defends the rights of ALL its members equally, like the ALPA I grew up in. I want my union to become a true democracy, not an oligarchy claiming that it represents + - 50 airlines, while it is totally controlled by 5 or 6 of them.

Now do you understand?

 

[FR8mastr]

Are they going to hire regional pilots to fly them?

Maybe it would help me if you told me what benefit YOU expect to get from that?

Meanwhile back at the ranch, 25 airplanes and 250 potential jobs will be "lost" at Republic along with 125 upgrades. If you don't think that's detrimental to that airline and its pilots, then I guess you haven't been around this business long enough to know which side is up.

Surplus, while I agree with you just about 100% on how this whole mess (alpa) got started, Republic will not lose anything! They do not have the planes (yet) so how have they lost anything? The guys that will lose, the almost 1000 jobs at the division. They are losing their jobs. I think somebody being shown the street is more detrimental, than somebody not being hired.

 

[General Lee]

My propoganda is more entertaining. And, it actually makes sense. The RJDC is full of lazy pilots who want more without having to interview for it. ALPA has a few problems, but without them we would have been $crewed even more a long time ago. Look, you don't see the Regional airline pilots dropping ALPA, do you? They just complain about them, but still NEED their help and the financial backing in case of a strike. Hey, I paid up when Comair went on strike, and look what that brought us......A whole lotta thanks. I am glad the AWA pilots figured out that the CHQ E190s should be left to mainline. Where will the line be drawn? Not sure in this Chap 11 environment, but most pilots already know the answer, and the few that are giddy about it know they would bust any interview.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

One big problem though Surplus: the reforms that you would like to see would destroy the Association. Eliminating scope as we know it and allowing "bidding" on all flying is the scariest thing I can imagine for this profession. You should listen to GogglesPisano. He has it right. The flying (code) is owned and controlled by the mainline pilot groups just as it should be. The AWA pilots are putting their foot down, and not a moment too soon.

 

[surplus1]

All flying belongs to mainline pilots. They may choose to allow their employer to subcontract less desirable flying in smaller aircraft if they choose. But basically it all belongs to them.

Congratulations, you win the mythology award. Fact is NO flying belongs to either mainline pilots or regional pilots. The flying belongs to the Company.

Mainline pilots chose voluntarily to negotiate away the flying that they once had exclusive access to. They sold part of their house when they really didn't need to and they moved to what they saw as a bigger and better house in the same neighborhood. They were wrong. However, the house they once owned is not longer theirs.

It is now occupied by a different family, which has as much right to occupy it as they once did. The new family aren't tenents, they bought their share before they moved in. If that new family can improve its status by upgrading its house, it has a right to do so and they have nothing to say about it.

They should have thought about the reality of the neighbors improving their property and eventually competing with them for dominance of the neighborhood before they sold. They didn't and that's too bad.

How does flying "belong" to mainline pilots, you ask? Because of thei CBA and their SCOPE LANGUAGE.

Their scope language is not a problem as long as it is confined to the protection of their own house. When it attempts to control the house of their neighbor, then it is out of line and will be useless.

As it turns out, their "scope language" has been less than adequate and devoid of any imagination. Attempts to expand it so as to create new advantages for them or recover what they already gave away can only be accomplished at the expense of their neighbor's rights. They even attempt to encompass the property of neghbors that is not attached to and does not adjoin their own. Both efforts are illegal and invalid.

Management now has an advantage. It can negotiate to give its flying to the lowest bidder, and that is exactly what it is doing. The exclusivity that the mainline once had, has already been bargained away. As they seek to bargain it back they will now have to deal with the equal bargaing rights of the competitor that they themselves created. It's open for grabs.

One man's garbage is another man's truffles. The mainline pilots should have thought of that. They didn't and now that they are hungry themselves, they want the garbage back.

Too little and too late. The EMB190 will go to whoever provides the best advantage for the Company. Pilots on both sides of the fence will lose in the process.

That is merely the natural outcome of a disastrous policy on the part of our union.

Keep it in the family AWA!

What family?