Am West won't allow 190 regional flying

[PCL_128]

Congratulations, you win the mythology award. Fact is NO flying belongs to either mainline pilots or regional pilots. The flying belongs to the Company.

Mainline pilots chose voluntarily to negotiate away the flying that they once had exclusive access to. They sold part of their house when they really didn't need to and they moved to what they saw as a bigger and better house in the same neighborhood. They were wrong. However, the house they once owned is not longer theirs.

Simply ridiculous. The mainline CBAs allow certain flying to be "outsourced" based on seats and other factors, but that doesn't transfer the actual control of the code. The code is still controlled by the mainline CBA, they just chose to allow certain flying to be done by another pilot group. In essence, they are allowing the regionals to "borrow" flying that their CBA controls. Flying may belong to the company, but the company negotiated a CBA with the Association that gives control of the code to the Assocation through the scope clause.

 

[surplus1]

One big problem though Surplus: the reforms that you would like to see would destroy the Association. Eliminating scope as we know it and allowing "bidding" on all flying is the scariest thing I can imagine for this profession. You should listen to GogglesPisano. He has it right. The flying (code) is owned and controlled by the mainline pilot groups just as it should be. The AWA pilots are putting their foot down, and not a moment too soon.

What you and the mainliners won't recognize is the fact that no one is attempting to eliminate scope as we know it. The problem is that you want scope as we once knew it. Note the subtle difference.

You cannot restore what you once had without harming the person that has it now. Obviously you don't care if you do that as long as you get what you want. There are others who do care, and their rights are equal under the law.

I do not seek to eliminate scope and replace it with "bidding". In fact I agree completely that bidding wars are detrimental to the entire profession. Unfortunately, that climate has already been created by the mainline pilots who gave up their scope for money, and our Union which seeks to favor them in preference to us. The "bidding war" is already with us and it was created by our own actions as well as our inaction (as a union).

Now they seek to take back what they already sold by writing new scope that would have the effect of eliminating my job. That I will not allow if I can help it.

We could have eliminated or at least minimized the problem by sitting down with each other and deciding jointly how to draw an appropriate line. That could not be done because one side (the mainline) saw itself as a "super power" that could simply dictate to the other side whatever it chose and had no need to listen to anything but its own voice. Wrong again. The result is an open conflict of interest.

I'm sorry, but the code (flying) is neither owned or controlled by the mainline pilots, they bargained that away and they will not get it back unless the Company chooses to sell it to them. So far, not a single management has sold anything back and they (the mainline pilots) have continued to sell more and more of what once was exclusively theirs, while proclaiming loudly that it still belongs to them. A classic case of eating you cake and having it at the same time. That hasn't worked yet and it won't work. The companies have way too much leverage, especially in this economic climate.

Mark my words: Forever more, every "mainline" carrier will be forced to negotiate lesser scope restrictions every time they sit with the Company at the bargaining table. The price of "scope" will be raised higher and higher by the Company. End result = bidding wars, courtesy of mainline pilot groups/ALPA (which are one and the same). Don'y think you belong to the club just because you are occasionally permitted to be a fly on the wall. They only let you listen to whatever they want you to hear. At other times, every mainline MEC lies like the proverbial rug, pretending to extend the olive branch, while privately plotting to do you in.

It only "works" within the union because the union is prejudiced in favor of some of its members and against others of its members. That is because is being run by those with the prejudice. The fox is in the hen house. It doesn't take rocket science to figure that out.

I don't know the exact terms of the AWA contract. Perhaps it does prevent the operation of any more aircraft of that size on behalf of America West. If so, I perfectly understand why they want to keep it that way. On the other hand, USAirways contract permits the operation of 25 of the aircraft in question. Another conflict.

When the companies merge, those contractual differences will have to be reconciled, regardless of what the AWA pilots do or don't want to do. Once again, the Company, which owns both the "code" and the "flying" has the upper hand. They didn't get it because some regional pilot groups wants to take "mainline flying". They got it beacuse the mainline pilots gave it to them. So let's not get carried away blaming regional pilots for this mess.

Those folks also have to agree to seniority integration (between AWA and USA), which the Company will have to accept. What are they going to do when the Company says: Well, you got your choice, give us the 190's that we want per the USA agreement or we will integrate you by date of hire and accept the USA CBA as superior to yours. How long after that will the AWA pilots continue to "put their foot down"?

A sensible soultion to this overall problem could be reached on all properties if ALPA would get realistic instead of hanging on to a pipe dream. It is not my ideas that would destroy ALPA. ALPA's own continued recalcitrance most surely could.

"What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

 

[PCL_128]

Surplus, the big problem with your post is that no one is trying to take anything that you (or the CHQ pilots) already have. The General is not trying to take back your 70 seaters, and the AWA pilots are not trying to take back the flying that the CHQ pilots already have. They are simply trying to avoid yet more flying being outsourced.

You say that "You cannot restore what you once had without harming the person that has it now." Who is being harmed by the AWA pilots preventing the further outsourcing of their flying? No regional pilot will be furloughed as a result of this. No one will take a pay cut. No one is harmed in any way.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

25 airplanes and 250 potential jobs will be "lost" at Republic along with 125 upgrades. If you don't think that's detrimental to that airline and its pilots, then I guess you haven't been around this business long enough to know which side is up.

How can you lose jobs on airplanes you don't have? By your theory we could argue that mainline will lose those jobs if they don't fly those. Would you say mainline jobs were lost when DCI orderd 400 RJs?

 

[BenderGonzales]

"It is now occupied by a different family, which has as much right to occupy it as they once did. The new family aren't tenents, they bought their share before they moved in."

Is the new family actively trying to stage a coup'detat against their neighbors in order to claim more land?

Squatters rights? I dont think that a 90 seat platform was EVER in play. And if you read US Airways LOA91 I believe it says that the EMB-190 would only be outsourced to affiliates if US Airways ordered the airplane and then subsequently could not take delivery of the airplane.

So, since they never ordered the 190, this is all moot. 90 seats is still a mainline airplane.

 

[StaySeated]

blah blah blah blah


For those of you that want all NEW pilot positions at the regional level where we might make 100k in 12 years raise your hand and send the rjdc your coffee money.

For those of you that want as many new jobs at mainline as possible, start praying that the 190 never ends up at a regional. Oh wait, it already has. We are all screwed. Once JB or Republic starts to operate this career-ending-airframe the whipsaw will begin and everyone will fly this thing for 60k in the left seat. Somehow the rjdc would consider that a victory. I am certain that some of those guys are moles from ford&harrison.

oh well, jets are neat!

 

[BenderGonzales]

No. It's "Jets R' Neat"

With a backwards "R" - like in "Toys R' Us"

 

[Nindiri]

At my age (early 40's) and relatively high senority and QOL at my regional employer, I am not likely to ever leave it. Why shouldn't I want the biggest aircraft possible at my company? I don't blame the mainline guys for wanting all of it, they are looking out for their own well-being; I do not feel guilty for doing the same. I do not owe it to anyone else to sacrifice my career possibilities just so they can have more. If they want the 70 or 90 seaters, let them expend the negotiating capital to get them, but don't expect me to do their job for them.

 

[michael707767]

Once JB or Republic starts to operate this career-ending-airframe the whipsaw will begin and everyone will fly this thing for 60k in the left seat.

Hmm, I fail to see how JB operating a 190 will be a career ending event. Despite the piss poor pay, the 190 operated for Jetblue will be flown by Jetblue pilots.....no outsourcing (something the media always fails to mention when they say the majors are doomed if they don't allow their regionals to fly the 190). Frankly, give me the piss poor pay and the jobs rather than see the jobs go to someone else. For that, I say good on ya Jetblue.

 

[StaySeated]

I would love to work at jb due to the fact that they offer pay in terms of options, profit sharing, and retirement that will never be seen at the regional level, plus I would like to commute to work and watch direct tv . I fear their 190 rates due to the fact that IF the same airframe is dangled in front of another carrier (who would ever dream of such a thing) the first thing out of the company's negotiator pie whole will be "how can we compete with jb?" and then the embarrassing rates get thrown on the table.


also, I do like the "R" part of the jets r neat. Any computer guru know how to turn that bad boy around like toys r us?

nindiri, I almost forgot to reply. While I respect your position and hope that you have a great career...I do not believe the replacement of narrow body flying with rj's is the answer. My opinion, no big deal, I understand where your comin from so there is no reason surplus or any other rjdc supporter should chime in with a disertation on why their poosy hurts.

 

[3blade]

When was the last time you were on a CRJ900. Some of them have first class, and yes unless you are 6'8'' you can stand up on them.

When is the last time you were on a 170? its a huge difference. No comparison.

 

[410dude]

Surplus, quit your whining. You are a comair lifer/loser who wants to get into Delta via the backdoor.

 

[Doug Parker]

Why do all of you RJ dorks get such a Hard-on over going to 410 ???


A lot of the Bizjets do it daily and a few make 510.................

 

[jbDC9]

Why do all of you RJ dorks get such a Hard-on over going to 410 ???

A lot of the Bizjets do it daily and a few make 510.................

If you're referencing 410dude's name, I believe it's called sarcasm. There's quite a bit of it stewing on this board.

As for the thread, the more I read from Surplus and the RJDC, the more I'm convinced he's delusional, off the deep end, or whatever you want to call it. Surplus, do you really think that the regional pilots need job protection from mainline? Are you smoking crack? Last time I looked, the "regionals" are growing by leaps and bounds, hiring by the hundreds, while the mainlines are shrinking and losing flying to the small jet providers. Tell us again why you should be allowed to grow even more and get even bigger jets... no wait, don't bother, it just wouldn't make any sense.

If you want bigger jets, quit Comair, get out from under the DL codeshare and start your own airline; either that or apply to SWA, CAL, FDX, etc. If you want to stay there, quit your whining and deal with the mainline scope clause. I gotta agree with General Lee on this one, it sounds like you were too lazy to try and get on at a mainline or "big jet" airline... but now you want it anyway. Gimme gimme, me me me. You sound like a spoiled brat who wants a big shiny jet but doesn't want to work for it.

Get over it already.

 

[BenderGonzales]

"You sound like a spoiled brat who wants a big shiny jet but doesn't want to work for it."

Be careful. On Flightinfo.com -- where you have pilots who chose PFT, went to "the Academy" or other bridge program, who had less than 1500 hours before suddenly being thrust from a Seminole into an RJ and who would sell their own mother to feed their SJS habit -- you might accidentally hit a little close to home.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus, while I agree with you just about 100% on how this whole mess (alpa) got started, Republic will not lose anything! They do not have the planes (yet) so how have they lost anything?

I agree with that. Now, since the AWA pilots do not have any E190s either, using your logic, how will they loose anything if they don't get them? Answer, they won't.

Where does that leave us? = The AWA guys "want" them for their future potential benefit. There's nothing wrong with that and it is no different from why the CHQ/REP guys should "want" them. The reason for "wanting" them is identical on both sides of the fence = more job security. Neither "want" is any more justified than the other.

Now is there some logic in your reasoning that says that AWA pilots are "entitled" to more job security than CHQ/REP pilots? And please don't tell me the reason is because its better for the regional pilots who will "get more mainline jobs". That's just pure baloney.

AWA was on shaky ground and AAA is bankrupt. The "new and improved" airline that will come out of this merger will still be on very shaky ground and there is no guarantee whatever how long it will be around or what future potential it will actually have.

I don't want it to fail because I don't want anyone to lose his job, but the fact is that large "mainline" carriers offer no security at all for any pilot near the bottom of the list.

The guys that will lose, the almost 1000 jobs at the division. They are losing their jobs. I think somebody being shown the street is more detrimental, than somebody not being hired.

I presume you make reference to the AAA guys. If so, I agree again. I would have no problem with them trying to hold on to anything they have or anything they may get. I don't afford that status to the AWA folks. They aren't trying to keep what they have, they're trying to get more.

In fact I think the AWA folks are a lot more worried (or they should be) about what will happen to them if they can't keep the AAA guys from getting the credit due for their seniority. You can better your bottom dollar that they'll be fighting with everything they can to make sure that no AAA guy gets any seniority higher than theirs and cussing the arbitrator that makes the final award for years to come. That's how much they'll be worrying about how many AAA pilots might lose their jobs; in other words, not at all.

I'm not new to this business FR8mstr, I know how it works in public and I know how it works behind the scenes. BTDT and got the T-shirt.

 

[crashpad]

Be careful. On Flightinfo.com -- where you have pilots who chose PFT, went to "the Academy" or other bridge program, who had less than 1500 hours before suddenly being thrust from a Seminole into an RJ and who would sell their own mother to feed their SJS habit -- you might accidentally hit a little close to home.

It does'nt matter, after consolidation of all the big boys Feeders will be limited to turbo-props and 50-seaters or less. The dream of flying bigger aeroplanes for the feeders is dream soon to be crushed by those of us who believe in safety first.

 

[surplus1]

My propoganda is more entertaining.

... Happy now? I'm entertained!

And, it actually makes sense.

Really? You sure fooled me, but then that's to be expected; after all I'm only a regional pilot and I should know that pronoucements from mainline pilots like you make more sense; right? You can dazzle the kids General but pulling the wool over my eyes is way above your paygrade.

The RJDC is full of lazy pilots who want more without having to interview for it.

That's right General, we're all foaming at the mouth for the opportunity to be in your mansion so we can share in the foreclosure. Tell me, how do you cope with all the illusions of grandeur you have on a daily basis? What size is your hat .... 10 or 12?

ALPA has a few problems, but without them we would have been $crewed even more a long time ago. Look, you don't see the Regional airline pilots dropping ALPA, do you?

I bet you'd just love it if CMR pilots would drop ALPA wouldn't you? Bet you think that would give you carte blanche to screw us whenever you choose. Well, I'll tell you what, we're smart enough to know that it would so don't hold your breath, ok? I think when it comes to leaving ALPA your group is likely to get there way ahead of mine. Isn't that what your group likes to do when you don't get your way; threaten to leave? I've seen you all play that card more than once. That strategy works with DW, but not with us.

ALPA, unfortunately, has a lot more than a "few" problems and virtually all of them come from the "Legacy" seniority lists. Nevertheless it's still worth salvaging. When you've been around long enough to know a little more about ALPA maybe you'll wise up and help to fix it. But yeah, I realize that's wishful thinking. When you're part of the problem, which you are, I shouldn't expect you to be part of the solution too.

Hey, I paid up when Comair went on strike, and look what that brought us......A whole lotta thanks.

Geeze, and I thought you paid because we were "brothers". Silly me, I should have known you wanted something in return. What did you want General, captain seats for your furloughed new hires? Come on now own up; what was it that you wanted that you didn't get?

Did you want preferential hiring ahead of your furloughed brethren from other ALPA carriers? Did you get mad because we had the same rules for you as we had for them? Did you feel you were entitled to more? Tell us General, what was it you expected in return for doing what every other ALPA pilot did wihout a single complaint, save yours?

Did you want more than a furloughed USAir pilot, or United pilot, or TWA pilot, or did you just think you should get more that a fourloughed ACA pilot, EGL pilot or Midway pilot? Did you just want a hug or did you think you had bought something more?

Come on now, tell me what entitled you to more and tell me how much more you paid than the others. I'd really like to know just what you think made you more "special" than all the others. What was the pay back that you expected for your "brotherly love"? Don't keep it a secret man, tell us.

I'll give you credit for one thing. Out of all the ALPA airlines that "paid", and all the non-ALPA airlines that voluntarily gave your airline is the ONLY one that ever expected or asked for anything in return. Congratulations! That says a lot for your character. You should be proud. Tell me, whatever happend to your once-upon-a-time reputation as gentlemen? Never mind, you wouldn't understand or know.

I am glad the AWA pilots figured out that the CHQ E190s should be left to mainline.

Why is that General? Is it because you "feel" for the AWA pilots, or is it because that's what you want for yourself? You sure you don't have a hidden agenda of self-interest or is this just one of your many sacrifices "for the good of the profession"?

Like I said before buddy, save your yarns for those that are still wet behind the ears. I'm not it the least bit dazzled by your BS and you should know that by now. There's not a single thing that you have that I want, past, present or future; so you're barking up the wrong tree.

Where will the line be drawn? Not sure in this Chap 11 environment, but most pilots already know the answer, and the few that are giddy about it know they would bust any interview.

I don't know where the line will be drawn either; I just know that it won't be drawn on the basis of dictates from you. When the chips are down, I would think it will be drawn by the Company wherever they choose to draw it and both of us will have to live with the result, like it or not. If I were you, I wouldn't count my chickens before they hatch.

Truth is General you don't know a bit more about why the chicken crosses the road than I do. Like it or not, and I don't, we're both in this crap together. It's left to be seen which stain will come out first in the wash. I hope that nobody loses too much, and yes, that includes you too.

As for whatever you mean by "bust any interview" I don't have a clue. So enjoy the "I fooled him" feeling that gives you.

A word of advice; before you start crowing about your victory, wait 'till the game is over. Many a noisy rooster has been known to lose his head for crowing too early.

 

[IFlyLow]

I don't post on here much, but I have to for this... Is it just me, or does anyone else think surplus1 has seriously lost it? These delusional ramblings of his, I swear, are taking him farther and farther away from reality.

 

[surplus1]

The General is not trying to take back your 70 seaters,

First of all the General has nothing at all to do with that type of decision. Also the General doesn't know whether or not his MEC has been trying to take back our 70-seaters. He just believes whatever they tell him and they don't tell the truth.

I understand why you think that PCL_128 but I also know that you have not been exposed to any real knowledge of what happens behind closed doors, and no, I'm not guessing. There are some things that I just can't say in public.

What I will say is that the Delta MEC has been actively trying to prevent my airline from operating that aircraft since the day we placed the order for it, which was BEFORE, Delta Air Lines bought my company. You should also know that when we placed the order, it did NOT violate the Delta pilots' scope clause. Since that time, they changed their scope clause (because they failed in the effort to take it completely) to impose a limit, for all of DCI, of 57 aircraft total. Comair's order, before it became a Delta subsidiary, was for 90 of those aircraft for the exclusive use of Comair only (not shared with everybody and his brother). We did not place that order with Delat's money, we placed it with our own money. Those changes did harm us, as pilots, to the tune of millions of dollars. We don't intend to eat that unless somebody makes us and that somebody isn't going to be ALPA or the Delta MEC, not matter how long it takes.

There's a lot more than that, but there is no point in discussing it here.
Perhaps one day you will have the opportunity to see what has really gone on, in secret, behind the scenes. At that time you will be able to to comprehend who has been trying to do what to whom and why.

Meanwhile, I understand that you can only form opinions based on what you see. One day you will learn that the General's MEC is well "cloaked" like the Romulans of Star Trek. What you see, is not what you get. Let's just say that a thief who comes by night always thinks that the darkness hides what he's up to, but he always leaves something behind as evidence of his efforts.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread and make it a CMR deal. This is about CHQ. So lets forget about Comair.

Who is being harmed by the AWA pilots preventing the further outsourcing of their flying?

The answer is no one at this point. The AWA pilots have a right to try and I do not fault them for trying. I don't know their contract, but it seems logical that if they already had those rights they would have no need to "negotiate" them. If they have to negotiate, then that means they do not have those rights secured. You don't negotiate what you already have, outside of Section 6, unless you have to or you want to.

No regional pilot will be furloughed as a result of this. No one will take a pay cut. No one is harmed in any way.

That is all true. Now, since AWA does not now operate this aircraft type, they aren't going to take a pay cut, they aren't going to be furloughed or harmed in any way either. CHQ has no contract with America West. They don't stand to lose anything that they already have. So why are they meddling in somebody elses business?

Bottom line = they just want the aircraft. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody wants a new aircraft if they can get it. Before they found out that CHQ had a potential deal with USAirways to fly it, they weren't negotiating anything. They're only doing it now because they want it for themselves, instead of CHQ.

Why is it wrong for CHQ/REP pilots to want it also? Why should they not want to complete the deal they had with U? I don't see why you think that AWA pilots have any more "right" to that aircraft than CHQ pilots do.

Why can't the Company put the aircraft where they want to? Why does the deal have to be canceled because AWA may eventually merge with U? Are the AWA pilots wearing invisible halos or something?

If this was an airplane that AWA already had or had on order, I would be on their side all the way, but they don't operate it and their company has not ordered it. So on what basis do you choose one in preference to the other?

If there is anyone that has the potential of being harmed by this is the U pilots, not AWA. Why don't I hear something about them?