Am West won't allow 190 regional flying

[BoilerUP]

Surplus,

How would AmWest securing E-190 flying be detrimental to regional pilots?

 

[surplus1]

Are they going to hire regional pilots to fly them?

Maybe it would help me if you told me what benefit YOU expect to get from that?

Meanwhile back at the ranch, 25 airplanes and 250 potential jobs will be "lost" at Republic along with 125 upgrades. If you don't think that's detrimental to that airline and its pilots, then I guess you haven't been around this business long enough to know which side is up.

 

[BenderGonzales]

SOMEBODY has to benefit from new airplanes. As a result, somebody else will NOT benefit.

May the best negotiator win.

 

[GogglesPisano]

All flying belongs to mainline pilots. They may choose to allow their employer to subcontract less desirable flying in smaller aircraft if they choose. But basically it all belongs to them.

How does flying "belong" to mainline pilots, you ask? Because of thei CBA and their SCOPE LANGUAGE.

Keep it in the family AWA!

 

[BoilerUP]

Surplus,

I have not been around the industry as long as you or some others that contribue to this board, but I fail to see how 25 airplanes, 250 pilots and 125 upgrades are "lost" to RAH if those planes are scoped by AmWest because these planes are not there yet. Those planes at RAH would allow the rapid growth to continue (which would benefit me and people like me), but the same argument could be made for flying 737s, Airbusses, etc. The only difference is the E170 is at RAH and the 737/A320 is at mainline. RAH will continue to grow in the 70-seat market in the next 2-3 years, while some 50-seaters will go away. The growth *will* slow there, and while that'll make for slower upgrades, growth at mainline should allow for attrition upwards, which will compensate some for the slowing growth at the regional level.

 

[surplus1]

Oh, we're all paying attention Surplus. Some of us just find your propaganda more disturbing than the General's.

Father forgive them for they know not what they do.

A question though: have you not said in the past that you wear a platinum ALPA pin? If you are so disenchanted with that "union flag," then why are you involved with the Association at all?

You missed the connection between "Dixie" and "Union"; a play on words. I wasn't talking about ALPA, I was talking about surrender. Sorry to be so confusing, but thanks for paying attention anyway.

The platinum pin is past tense; I don't wear one, I once wore one. I'm not disenchated with the union (ALPA), it's the finest organization of its kind. I'm disenchanted with its leadership, which I believe has perverted its mission and misdirected its policies to the detriment of us all. I'm involved because I care about that.

It's much like my country. I love my country; I despise its current administration. That doesn't mean I want to destroy my country or become a citizen of another country; it means I want to correct the things I see as wrong and put the country back on a better course.

The same thing applies to ALPA. I think that 1625 Mass. Ave. has been occupied by the wrong people for way too many years. I would like to see them all replaced by a new breed of forward looking thinkers better equipped to deal with the problems of today and those of the future. I abhor the favoritism, descrimination and bad faith that has been entrenched for years. I seek reform and a return to an Association that defends the rights of ALL its members equally, like the ALPA I grew up in. I want my union to become a true democracy, not an oligarchy claiming that it represents + - 50 airlines, while it is totally controlled by 5 or 6 of them.

Now do you understand?

 

[FR8mastr]

Are they going to hire regional pilots to fly them?

Maybe it would help me if you told me what benefit YOU expect to get from that?

Meanwhile back at the ranch, 25 airplanes and 250 potential jobs will be "lost" at Republic along with 125 upgrades. If you don't think that's detrimental to that airline and its pilots, then I guess you haven't been around this business long enough to know which side is up.

Surplus, while I agree with you just about 100% on how this whole mess (alpa) got started, Republic will not lose anything! They do not have the planes (yet) so how have they lost anything? The guys that will lose, the almost 1000 jobs at the division. They are losing their jobs. I think somebody being shown the street is more detrimental, than somebody not being hired.

 

[General Lee]

My propoganda is more entertaining. And, it actually makes sense. The RJDC is full of lazy pilots who want more without having to interview for it. ALPA has a few problems, but without them we would have been $crewed even more a long time ago. Look, you don't see the Regional airline pilots dropping ALPA, do you? They just complain about them, but still NEED their help and the financial backing in case of a strike. Hey, I paid up when Comair went on strike, and look what that brought us......A whole lotta thanks. I am glad the AWA pilots figured out that the CHQ E190s should be left to mainline. Where will the line be drawn? Not sure in this Chap 11 environment, but most pilots already know the answer, and the few that are giddy about it know they would bust any interview.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PCL_128]

One big problem though Surplus: the reforms that you would like to see would destroy the Association. Eliminating scope as we know it and allowing "bidding" on all flying is the scariest thing I can imagine for this profession. You should listen to GogglesPisano. He has it right. The flying (code) is owned and controlled by the mainline pilot groups just as it should be. The AWA pilots are putting their foot down, and not a moment too soon.

 

[surplus1]

All flying belongs to mainline pilots. They may choose to allow their employer to subcontract less desirable flying in smaller aircraft if they choose. But basically it all belongs to them.

Congratulations, you win the mythology award. Fact is NO flying belongs to either mainline pilots or regional pilots. The flying belongs to the Company.

Mainline pilots chose voluntarily to negotiate away the flying that they once had exclusive access to. They sold part of their house when they really didn't need to and they moved to what they saw as a bigger and better house in the same neighborhood. They were wrong. However, the house they once owned is not longer theirs.

It is now occupied by a different family, which has as much right to occupy it as they once did. The new family aren't tenents, they bought their share before they moved in. If that new family can improve its status by upgrading its house, it has a right to do so and they have nothing to say about it.

They should have thought about the reality of the neighbors improving their property and eventually competing with them for dominance of the neighborhood before they sold. They didn't and that's too bad.

How does flying "belong" to mainline pilots, you ask? Because of thei CBA and their SCOPE LANGUAGE.

Their scope language is not a problem as long as it is confined to the protection of their own house. When it attempts to control the house of their neighbor, then it is out of line and will be useless.

As it turns out, their "scope language" has been less than adequate and devoid of any imagination. Attempts to expand it so as to create new advantages for them or recover what they already gave away can only be accomplished at the expense of their neighbor's rights. They even attempt to encompass the property of neghbors that is not attached to and does not adjoin their own. Both efforts are illegal and invalid.

Management now has an advantage. It can negotiate to give its flying to the lowest bidder, and that is exactly what it is doing. The exclusivity that the mainline once had, has already been bargained away. As they seek to bargain it back they will now have to deal with the equal bargaing rights of the competitor that they themselves created. It's open for grabs.

One man's garbage is another man's truffles. The mainline pilots should have thought of that. They didn't and now that they are hungry themselves, they want the garbage back.

Too little and too late. The EMB190 will go to whoever provides the best advantage for the Company. Pilots on both sides of the fence will lose in the process.

That is merely the natural outcome of a disastrous policy on the part of our union.

Keep it in the family AWA!

What family?

 

[PCL_128]

Congratulations, you win the mythology award. Fact is NO flying belongs to either mainline pilots or regional pilots. The flying belongs to the Company.

Mainline pilots chose voluntarily to negotiate away the flying that they once had exclusive access to. They sold part of their house when they really didn't need to and they moved to what they saw as a bigger and better house in the same neighborhood. They were wrong. However, the house they once owned is not longer theirs.

Simply ridiculous. The mainline CBAs allow certain flying to be "outsourced" based on seats and other factors, but that doesn't transfer the actual control of the code. The code is still controlled by the mainline CBA, they just chose to allow certain flying to be done by another pilot group. In essence, they are allowing the regionals to "borrow" flying that their CBA controls. Flying may belong to the company, but the company negotiated a CBA with the Association that gives control of the code to the Assocation through the scope clause.

 

[surplus1]

One big problem though Surplus: the reforms that you would like to see would destroy the Association. Eliminating scope as we know it and allowing "bidding" on all flying is the scariest thing I can imagine for this profession. You should listen to GogglesPisano. He has it right. The flying (code) is owned and controlled by the mainline pilot groups just as it should be. The AWA pilots are putting their foot down, and not a moment too soon.

What you and the mainliners won't recognize is the fact that no one is attempting to eliminate scope as we know it. The problem is that you want scope as we once knew it. Note the subtle difference.

You cannot restore what you once had without harming the person that has it now. Obviously you don't care if you do that as long as you get what you want. There are others who do care, and their rights are equal under the law.

I do not seek to eliminate scope and replace it with "bidding". In fact I agree completely that bidding wars are detrimental to the entire profession. Unfortunately, that climate has already been created by the mainline pilots who gave up their scope for money, and our Union which seeks to favor them in preference to us. The "bidding war" is already with us and it was created by our own actions as well as our inaction (as a union).

Now they seek to take back what they already sold by writing new scope that would have the effect of eliminating my job. That I will not allow if I can help it.

We could have eliminated or at least minimized the problem by sitting down with each other and deciding jointly how to draw an appropriate line. That could not be done because one side (the mainline) saw itself as a "super power" that could simply dictate to the other side whatever it chose and had no need to listen to anything but its own voice. Wrong again. The result is an open conflict of interest.

I'm sorry, but the code (flying) is neither owned or controlled by the mainline pilots, they bargained that away and they will not get it back unless the Company chooses to sell it to them. So far, not a single management has sold anything back and they (the mainline pilots) have continued to sell more and more of what once was exclusively theirs, while proclaiming loudly that it still belongs to them. A classic case of eating you cake and having it at the same time. That hasn't worked yet and it won't work. The companies have way too much leverage, especially in this economic climate.

Mark my words: Forever more, every "mainline" carrier will be forced to negotiate lesser scope restrictions every time they sit with the Company at the bargaining table. The price of "scope" will be raised higher and higher by the Company. End result = bidding wars, courtesy of mainline pilot groups/ALPA (which are one and the same). Don'y think you belong to the club just because you are occasionally permitted to be a fly on the wall. They only let you listen to whatever they want you to hear. At other times, every mainline MEC lies like the proverbial rug, pretending to extend the olive branch, while privately plotting to do you in.

It only "works" within the union because the union is prejudiced in favor of some of its members and against others of its members. That is because is being run by those with the prejudice. The fox is in the hen house. It doesn't take rocket science to figure that out.

I don't know the exact terms of the AWA contract. Perhaps it does prevent the operation of any more aircraft of that size on behalf of America West. If so, I perfectly understand why they want to keep it that way. On the other hand, USAirways contract permits the operation of 25 of the aircraft in question. Another conflict.

When the companies merge, those contractual differences will have to be reconciled, regardless of what the AWA pilots do or don't want to do. Once again, the Company, which owns both the "code" and the "flying" has the upper hand. They didn't get it because some regional pilot groups wants to take "mainline flying". They got it beacuse the mainline pilots gave it to them. So let's not get carried away blaming regional pilots for this mess.

Those folks also have to agree to seniority integration (between AWA and USA), which the Company will have to accept. What are they going to do when the Company says: Well, you got your choice, give us the 190's that we want per the USA agreement or we will integrate you by date of hire and accept the USA CBA as superior to yours. How long after that will the AWA pilots continue to "put their foot down"?

A sensible soultion to this overall problem could be reached on all properties if ALPA would get realistic instead of hanging on to a pipe dream. It is not my ideas that would destroy ALPA. ALPA's own continued recalcitrance most surely could.

"What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive."

 

[PCL_128]

Surplus, the big problem with your post is that no one is trying to take anything that you (or the CHQ pilots) already have. The General is not trying to take back your 70 seaters, and the AWA pilots are not trying to take back the flying that the CHQ pilots already have. They are simply trying to avoid yet more flying being outsourced.

You say that "You cannot restore what you once had without harming the person that has it now." Who is being harmed by the AWA pilots preventing the further outsourcing of their flying? No regional pilot will be furloughed as a result of this. No one will take a pay cut. No one is harmed in any way.

 

[180ToTheMarker]

25 airplanes and 250 potential jobs will be "lost" at Republic along with 125 upgrades. If you don't think that's detrimental to that airline and its pilots, then I guess you haven't been around this business long enough to know which side is up.

How can you lose jobs on airplanes you don't have? By your theory we could argue that mainline will lose those jobs if they don't fly those. Would you say mainline jobs were lost when DCI orderd 400 RJs?

 

[BenderGonzales]

"It is now occupied by a different family, which has as much right to occupy it as they once did. The new family aren't tenents, they bought their share before they moved in."

Is the new family actively trying to stage a coup'detat against their neighbors in order to claim more land?

Squatters rights? I dont think that a 90 seat platform was EVER in play. And if you read US Airways LOA91 I believe it says that the EMB-190 would only be outsourced to affiliates if US Airways ordered the airplane and then subsequently could not take delivery of the airplane.

So, since they never ordered the 190, this is all moot. 90 seats is still a mainline airplane.