Am I Too Old?

[apcooper]

Just out of curiousity what age usually are we talking about in this thread when we have to start to worry about age discrimination?

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

Just out of curiousity what age usually are we talking about in this thread when we have to start to worry about age discrimination?

Let me make clear that my complaint is strictly about older career changers. Once again, I do not believe that there is clear-cut age discrimination against over-40 career pilots who started out young and who've been "club" members, i.e., those with good corporate time, 135 time, or military time.

Having said that, if you are over thirty-five and want to change careers to aviation, you need to consider age discrimination very carefully as part of your decision.

 

[bobbysamd]

Familiarity (breeding contempt - for others) and Longevity - then and now

Familiarity, "You are one of "us" so you will fit in. This includes former corporate, AG, airline, Military, etc. Happens many, many times, IMHO.

Strongly implying, then, that a non-"club" member, i.e, a career changer, would be barred from "membership" . . . .

Longevity, you won't leave to get a better job . . .

I dunno about that. I was told that my age would work in my favor because they would know I wouldn't leave. But, for that very same reason, I don't feel I was considered.

I believe they were afraid that I would stay, top out at scale and eventually vest in the retirement plan, all of which would have cost them money. Back then, the regionals figured that younger pilots would not stay, not top out at scale, not vest in the retirement plan, and be cheaper than someone who would stay. I would submit that now younger pilots who cannot move up will stay, top out, vest, and cost them money. It'll serve 'em right.

You're right - no matter who you are, it's a crapshoot. But for older aspirants, the dice are loaded against them, with the likely result being snake eyes.

 

[CapnVegetto]

bobbysamd

Do you work for Mesa? I used to.

 

[bobbysamd]

Do you work for Mesa? I used to.

I worked for MAPD briefly about twelve years ago. I never flew for the airline itself. I interviewed for the airline in 1990 and was not hired. The school hired me in 1993.

Both are long stories. Search the board for both and/or PM me, if you want.

 

[Griff]

If It Feels Good......

I am pushing 42, two kids and a wife of twenty years as of the 30th of this month. What have I learned...... Attitude, Desire, Cash, Back-Up Plan, and a supporting spouse and kids really help. Have a made it yet.... nope. Will I... yup. Started working for a cargo outfit and bailed out fast, had a bad feeling from the first day of training. Didn't want to give up my ticket or my life for that outfit even though it was the best "time" I could have put in my log. What I am doing now is finishing my instructor tickets. I like people and teaching. Figure it is a great way to network. Aviation is way cool. At the very least I can teach my kids to fly and see some really awesome sunrises and sunsets. We live from paycheck to paycheck, so money has always been an issue. I know all this feel good stuff doesn't put food on the table but, my advise to you is to find your own plan and stick to it. Trust Your Gut! Opportunity is everywhere. Sniff, sniff..... I'll stop now. Good Luck And Clear Skies!

 

[2yrs2go]

Bobby, thanks for all the info to consider.



This choice, especially at mid career and given the current state of the industry, is a risky one. I have a sneaky suspicion that no amount of wise caution will dissuade those of us in the throws of the changeover to give it a second thought. There really is no logical justification for putting our lives (including our wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends, children, parents) on hold, taking on large amounts of debt, eating Ramen Noodles and PB and J day in and day out, etc. to take a job that pays 15-20k the first year out.



Aviation is something you dream about doing. It is something you want. Logic has little place in a dream.

 

[bobbysamd]

You have been warned . . . .

This choice, especially at mid career and given the current state of the industry, is a risky one. I have a sneaky suspicion that no amount of wise caution will dissuade those of us in the throws of the changeover to give it a second thought. There really is no logical justification for putting our lives (including our wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends, children, parents) on hold, taking on large amounts of debt, eating Ramen Noodles and PB and J day in and day out, etc. to take a job that pays 15-20k the first year out.
Aviation is something you dream about doing. It is something you want. Logic has little place in a dream.

I agree. I lived the "dream" for several years until it hit me that when you get older dreams must give way to practicality and pragmatism. And, I have news for you. You might be eating Ramen and PB & J and be making $15-$20K for more than the first year, and without health insurance and other benies to which you are accustomed. Not to mention that you might find yourself in semiannual arguments with management about getting even that much money.

Given the uncertainties of the career and the economy, I would almost advise younger people as well as older people to consider their decision very carefully - though younger people have plenty of time to start another career if aviation does not work out. When you're older, such as I was, you do not have that time. So, knowing what I know, I again urge you to consider your decision - and its potential impact on your life and family - very carefully.

I also ask that you read this Rocky Mountain News article about cutbacks forced onto airline employees, including pilots, before deciding to change careers to aviation.

 

[JAFI]

I dunno about that. I was told that my age would work in my favor because they would know I wouldn't leave. But, for that very same reason, I don't feel I was considered.

You're right - no matter who you are, it's a crapshoot. But for older aspirants, the dice are loaded against them, with the likely result being snake eyes.

Bobby, Sometimes the employer wants you to leave so you don't have the higher wage and sometimes they want tyou to stay a long time so they have a stable work force, no matter what it costs. And this can change in a heart beat when a new boss is hired.

Once I spent two years trying to get hired by several companies where I knew the chief pilots on the field. I could not even get hired for the day when they needed some one to seat fill for a trip. I was talking to one of the pilots about getting hired and he told me I would never get hired. I asked why. He said that I had more experience than the chief pilot. He was just protecting his job...

If I had to do it all over again I would have become a plumber. At the end of the day you wash your hands and forget about work. You also get paid more to work weekends and holidays AND you make enough to buy a single engine airplane to go play on nice days.
JAFI

 

[bobbysamd]

Plumbing v. flying

If I had to do it all over again I would have become a plumber. At the end of the day you wash your hands and forget about work. You also get paid more to work weekends and holidays AND you make enough to buy a single engine airplane to go play on nice days.

You're right. My plumber is $70 per hour plus truck fee.

 

[2yrs2go]

The question asked, in a nutshell, is “Am I too old to become a professional pilot?” Like Bobby has rather thoroughly explained, this is a high risk proposition. What I have taken from the conversation is that before one makes the change, one should know the risks. The risks are enormous and need no further explanation. If you are willing to take the risk, the reward may be enormous as well.

I am quite lucky to have spent a few years (does that make me a member of the club?) in the business. The risks are well known. The point that Bobby makes, is know the risks, you may never get to the dance.

This is a business that gets into your blood, whether you are on the ramp, in scheduling, inflight, flight ops or even, dare I say it, management.

As for plumbing... there are plumbers who never achieved the success promised by their mentors. There are plumbers who hate their jobs. There are lawyers, chefs, executives, laborers, etc, etc, etc that are in the same boat.

Life is a crap shoot. I would rather go to my grave knowing I tried, then wishing I had. For the moment, this is the dream.

 

[pilotyip]

I think "Fly because you like too, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed" pretty well sums it up.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Club" "membership" defined

I am quite lucky to have spent a few years (does that make me a member of the club?) in the business . . . .

What I mean by "club" "membership" is having experience in something other than boring holes in the sky or flight instructing, e.g., corporate, freight, 135, and amassing some hours, or being military. I believe that age discrimination is less prevalent, if not entirely non-existent, for "club" members.

Perhaps airline workers employed in non-pilot positions might also be club members, because they've built a track record in the business.

Kit Darby made a big deal during the 1987-'91 hiring boom about the airlines hiring over-40 pilots - which made career changing attractive. Kit did not mention that the over-40 pilots in question had already been flying for years, were well-qualified and had good 135, regional, freight and corporate experience, or were ex-military - all members of the "club." These were people who were qualified for the airlines but had not been given their chance.

Outsiders, especially older career-changers with relatively low time and no experience beyond flight instructing, face age discrimination, as opposed to their much-younger colleagues with similar backgrounds.

 

[Vdub Pilot]

I left a cushy senior corporate paralegal position in 97 at age 29 to get all my ratings. I instructed for 3 years and made pretty decent money. I started with a regional 3 years ago making nothing and commuting to work. That all ended last week when I was furloughed. Now at age 36 it's time to reavaluate. Beleive me, the airlines may not be what you think its going to be. Commuting, missing your family, missing holidays, missing your sons first steps, first words... All in all I can honestly say that the most enjoyable flying I have ever done was as a self-employed CFI. I met great people , flew great airplanes, and was my own boss. I realize my CFI situation was unique but it was truly a blast.

My experience at the regional: I worked for a great little regional. Wonderful people and great relationship with management. I never ever had any work issues with management like you hear about at other regionals. However, living life constantly tired and disconnected from my family was more difficult than I imagined. Lack of sleep and poor quality of food on the road is something you need to think about. I knew it was time to pay my dues so I just waited to upgrade. Prior to my class start date we announced the furloughs.

Will I still stay in the business? I have 6 interviews over the next 2 weeks. Motivation is low (for the interviews) but I love flying. I am rethinking my strategy. It is possible I will leave the business. The low salaray just doesn't seem to justify the responsibility and the time away from my wife and baby.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying v. law or other professions

I left a cushy senior corporate paralegal position in 97 at age 29 to get all my ratings. I instructed for 3 years and made pretty decent money. I started with a regional 3 years ago making nothing and commuting to work. That all ended last week when I was furloughed. Now at age 36 it's time to reavaluate . . . .

Well . . . . there's always law, and working with lawyers and clients.

Of course, the pros of working in lawfirms include somewhat regular schedules, most holidays off and being at home every night. Depending on your practice, cons include struggling to meet deadlines, impossible workloads and dealing with difficult people.

Seriously, as someone with regional experience, you're a member of the club. Unless you really don't want any more flying, go to the interviews and do your best. This, coming from someone on the outside looking in.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.