Am I Too Old?

[apcooper]

Just out of curiousity what age usually are we talking about in this thread when we have to start to worry about age discrimination?

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

Just out of curiousity what age usually are we talking about in this thread when we have to start to worry about age discrimination?

Let me make clear that my complaint is strictly about older career changers. Once again, I do not believe that there is clear-cut age discrimination against over-40 career pilots who started out young and who've been "club" members, i.e., those with good corporate time, 135 time, or military time.

Having said that, if you are over thirty-five and want to change careers to aviation, you need to consider age discrimination very carefully as part of your decision.

 

[bobbysamd]

Familiarity (breeding contempt - for others) and Longevity - then and now

Familiarity, "You are one of "us" so you will fit in. This includes former corporate, AG, airline, Military, etc. Happens many, many times, IMHO.

Strongly implying, then, that a non-"club" member, i.e, a career changer, would be barred from "membership" . . . .

Longevity, you won't leave to get a better job . . .

I dunno about that. I was told that my age would work in my favor because they would know I wouldn't leave. But, for that very same reason, I don't feel I was considered.

I believe they were afraid that I would stay, top out at scale and eventually vest in the retirement plan, all of which would have cost them money. Back then, the regionals figured that younger pilots would not stay, not top out at scale, not vest in the retirement plan, and be cheaper than someone who would stay. I would submit that now younger pilots who cannot move up will stay, top out, vest, and cost them money. It'll serve 'em right.

You're right - no matter who you are, it's a crapshoot. But for older aspirants, the dice are loaded against them, with the likely result being snake eyes.

 

[CapnVegetto]

bobbysamd

Do you work for Mesa? I used to.

 

[bobbysamd]

Do you work for Mesa? I used to.

I worked for MAPD briefly about twelve years ago. I never flew for the airline itself. I interviewed for the airline in 1990 and was not hired. The school hired me in 1993.

Both are long stories. Search the board for both and/or PM me, if you want.

 

[Griff]

If It Feels Good......

I am pushing 42, two kids and a wife of twenty years as of the 30th of this month. What have I learned...... Attitude, Desire, Cash, Back-Up Plan, and a supporting spouse and kids really help. Have a made it yet.... nope. Will I... yup. Started working for a cargo outfit and bailed out fast, had a bad feeling from the first day of training. Didn't want to give up my ticket or my life for that outfit even though it was the best "time" I could have put in my log. What I am doing now is finishing my instructor tickets. I like people and teaching. Figure it is a great way to network. Aviation is way cool. At the very least I can teach my kids to fly and see some really awesome sunrises and sunsets. We live from paycheck to paycheck, so money has always been an issue. I know all this feel good stuff doesn't put food on the table but, my advise to you is to find your own plan and stick to it. Trust Your Gut! Opportunity is everywhere. Sniff, sniff..... I'll stop now. Good Luck And Clear Skies!

 

[2yrs2go]

Bobby, thanks for all the info to consider.



This choice, especially at mid career and given the current state of the industry, is a risky one. I have a sneaky suspicion that no amount of wise caution will dissuade those of us in the throws of the changeover to give it a second thought. There really is no logical justification for putting our lives (including our wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends, children, parents) on hold, taking on large amounts of debt, eating Ramen Noodles and PB and J day in and day out, etc. to take a job that pays 15-20k the first year out.



Aviation is something you dream about doing. It is something you want. Logic has little place in a dream.

 

[bobbysamd]

You have been warned . . . .

This choice, especially at mid career and given the current state of the industry, is a risky one. I have a sneaky suspicion that no amount of wise caution will dissuade those of us in the throws of the changeover to give it a second thought. There really is no logical justification for putting our lives (including our wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends, children, parents) on hold, taking on large amounts of debt, eating Ramen Noodles and PB and J day in and day out, etc. to take a job that pays 15-20k the first year out.
Aviation is something you dream about doing. It is something you want. Logic has little place in a dream.

I agree. I lived the "dream" for several years until it hit me that when you get older dreams must give way to practicality and pragmatism. And, I have news for you. You might be eating Ramen and PB & J and be making $15-$20K for more than the first year, and without health insurance and other benies to which you are accustomed. Not to mention that you might find yourself in semiannual arguments with management about getting even that much money.

Given the uncertainties of the career and the economy, I would almost advise younger people as well as older people to consider their decision very carefully - though younger people have plenty of time to start another career if aviation does not work out. When you're older, such as I was, you do not have that time. So, knowing what I know, I again urge you to consider your decision - and its potential impact on your life and family - very carefully.

I also ask that you read this Rocky Mountain News article about cutbacks forced onto airline employees, including pilots, before deciding to change careers to aviation.

 

[JAFI]

I dunno about that. I was told that my age would work in my favor because they would know I wouldn't leave. But, for that very same reason, I don't feel I was considered.

You're right - no matter who you are, it's a crapshoot. But for older aspirants, the dice are loaded against them, with the likely result being snake eyes.

Bobby, Sometimes the employer wants you to leave so you don't have the higher wage and sometimes they want tyou to stay a long time so they have a stable work force, no matter what it costs. And this can change in a heart beat when a new boss is hired.

Once I spent two years trying to get hired by several companies where I knew the chief pilots on the field. I could not even get hired for the day when they needed some one to seat fill for a trip. I was talking to one of the pilots about getting hired and he told me I would never get hired. I asked why. He said that I had more experience than the chief pilot. He was just protecting his job...

If I had to do it all over again I would have become a plumber. At the end of the day you wash your hands and forget about work. You also get paid more to work weekends and holidays AND you make enough to buy a single engine airplane to go play on nice days.
JAFI

 

[bobbysamd]

Plumbing v. flying

If I had to do it all over again I would have become a plumber. At the end of the day you wash your hands and forget about work. You also get paid more to work weekends and holidays AND you make enough to buy a single engine airplane to go play on nice days.

You're right. My plumber is $70 per hour plus truck fee.

 

[2yrs2go]

The question asked, in a nutshell, is “Am I too old to become a professional pilot?” Like Bobby has rather thoroughly explained, this is a high risk proposition. What I have taken from the conversation is that before one makes the change, one should know the risks. The risks are enormous and need no further explanation. If you are willing to take the risk, the reward may be enormous as well.

I am quite lucky to have spent a few years (does that make me a member of the club?) in the business. The risks are well known. The point that Bobby makes, is know the risks, you may never get to the dance.

This is a business that gets into your blood, whether you are on the ramp, in scheduling, inflight, flight ops or even, dare I say it, management.

As for plumbing... there are plumbers who never achieved the success promised by their mentors. There are plumbers who hate their jobs. There are lawyers, chefs, executives, laborers, etc, etc, etc that are in the same boat.

Life is a crap shoot. I would rather go to my grave knowing I tried, then wishing I had. For the moment, this is the dream.

 

[pilotyip]

I think "Fly because you like too, if you are in it for the money you may be disappointed" pretty well sums it up.

 

[bobbysamd]

"Club" "membership" defined

I am quite lucky to have spent a few years (does that make me a member of the club?) in the business . . . .

What I mean by "club" "membership" is having experience in something other than boring holes in the sky or flight instructing, e.g., corporate, freight, 135, and amassing some hours, or being military. I believe that age discrimination is less prevalent, if not entirely non-existent, for "club" members.

Perhaps airline workers employed in non-pilot positions might also be club members, because they've built a track record in the business.

Kit Darby made a big deal during the 1987-'91 hiring boom about the airlines hiring over-40 pilots - which made career changing attractive. Kit did not mention that the over-40 pilots in question had already been flying for years, were well-qualified and had good 135, regional, freight and corporate experience, or were ex-military - all members of the "club." These were people who were qualified for the airlines but had not been given their chance.

Outsiders, especially older career-changers with relatively low time and no experience beyond flight instructing, face age discrimination, as opposed to their much-younger colleagues with similar backgrounds.

 

[Vdub Pilot]

I left a cushy senior corporate paralegal position in 97 at age 29 to get all my ratings. I instructed for 3 years and made pretty decent money. I started with a regional 3 years ago making nothing and commuting to work. That all ended last week when I was furloughed. Now at age 36 it's time to reavaluate. Beleive me, the airlines may not be what you think its going to be. Commuting, missing your family, missing holidays, missing your sons first steps, first words... All in all I can honestly say that the most enjoyable flying I have ever done was as a self-employed CFI. I met great people , flew great airplanes, and was my own boss. I realize my CFI situation was unique but it was truly a blast.

My experience at the regional: I worked for a great little regional. Wonderful people and great relationship with management. I never ever had any work issues with management like you hear about at other regionals. However, living life constantly tired and disconnected from my family was more difficult than I imagined. Lack of sleep and poor quality of food on the road is something you need to think about. I knew it was time to pay my dues so I just waited to upgrade. Prior to my class start date we announced the furloughs.

Will I still stay in the business? I have 6 interviews over the next 2 weeks. Motivation is low (for the interviews) but I love flying. I am rethinking my strategy. It is possible I will leave the business. The low salaray just doesn't seem to justify the responsibility and the time away from my wife and baby.

 

[bobbysamd]

Flying v. law or other professions

I left a cushy senior corporate paralegal position in 97 at age 29 to get all my ratings. I instructed for 3 years and made pretty decent money. I started with a regional 3 years ago making nothing and commuting to work. That all ended last week when I was furloughed. Now at age 36 it's time to reavaluate . . . .

Well . . . . there's always law, and working with lawyers and clients.

Of course, the pros of working in lawfirms include somewhat regular schedules, most holidays off and being at home every night. Depending on your practice, cons include struggling to meet deadlines, impossible workloads and dealing with difficult people.

Seriously, as someone with regional experience, you're a member of the club. Unless you really don't want any more flying, go to the interviews and do your best. This, coming from someone on the outside looking in.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[2yrs2go]

The “lifestyle” is probably the most significant hurdle in the process for mid career changers. Even for those who come to the profession as fresh faced 23 year olds, few seem prepared for the life on the road. I have no idea how the pilot parents make it work.

The lifestyle, and this come from four years on experience as a flight attendant for a regional, is not for everyone. I have tried most of the various versions of the life, and have found a number of truths:


For the first few years, maybe more, you will miss every single event of ANY significance in you life: weddings, births, retirement parties, birthday parties, voting, concerts, plays, favorite TV shows, opening day for the Cincinnati Reds (my personal bummer!), bill payment day, garbage day and the list goes on and on. If you want to do it, and do it at a scheduled time, forget about it. Weekends off will become a memory.


Commuting just plain sucks. There is no good way to commute. When I recruited flight attendants for my company I told them straight up, and will tell anyone else the same: DO NOT COMMUTE. I was lucky, I only did the hard core commute (waiting for seats on planes before and after your trip) for six months. After that, I lived within driving distance of my base, and hometown (2 hour drive). If you can live near (driving distance) of your base, your life, especially while on reserve, will improve dramatically.


Healthy Habits: the food you eat on the road is delicious, but not terribly healthy. You have to learn how to make it work. Most of the hotels the company’s put crews up in have gyms or workout rooms. Use it every day. Bring your own food/snacks. I remember in college that all my friends suffered “freshman 10.” Well, in this business, it’s the “reserve 20.” If you smoke, quit or learn to do without. Smoking areas, and the time to grab a smoke, are few and far between.


You will indeed be tired much of the time. This is especially true the first day back from a three to six day trip. If you have kids or other duties at home, they will most likely wait until your second day off. I have found this to be especially true of crewmembers over 35 to 40 years old. Most duty days are nine to twelve hours, but frequently, and without warning, they grow out to FAA limits.


This is my personal experience. This is by no means the definitive description of life on the line. The wonderful things about this business go without saying. And the negative things regarding the financial state of the business are well covered in the media and other threads.


All this said, after a short vacation, and at age 42, I start flight training full time in two weeks. I cannot wait to get back to the line, only this time up front, doing the most amazing thing I have ever done, flying an airplane. For those of you doing the career change, feel free to PM me (I’ll have to figure out how that works!) if you would like to discuss life on the road.

 

[bobbysamd]

Club membership

All this said, after a short vacation, and at age 42, I start flight training full time in two weeks. I cannot wait to get back to the line, only this time up front [after being a flight attendant], doing the most amazing thing I have ever done, flying an airplane. For those of you doing the career change, feel free to PM me (I’ll have to figure out how that works!) if you would like to discuss life on the road.

Ah, hah, a "club" member! As I wrote earlier, "club" members are virtually immune from age discrimination.

Flight attendants most certainly are "club" members. Further, as someone who recruited flight attendants, you would be well known in your company, have a track record, and undoubtedly will have some pull with the pilot recruiter by way of LORs and personal acquaintance. Given these factors, despite your age, you most definitely have a chance at being hired.

Yes, it is the "not what you know but who you know" factor, and, for you, that's fine. There are many stories about flight attendants who train as pilots and are hired as pilots by their companies.

Good luck with your training.

I stand by my position that regionals practice age discrimination against late-life career changers who offer nothing but instructing experience - as compared to their younger non-"club" members who offer the same experience and who do not experience discrimination.

 

[Vdub Pilot]

Well . . . . there's always law, and working with lawyers and clients.

Of course, the pros of working in lawfirms include somewhat regular schedules, most holidays off and being at home every night. Depending on your practice, cons include struggling to meet deadlines, impossible workloads and dealing with difficult people.

Seriously, as someone with regional experience, you're a member of the club. Unless you really don't want any more flying, go to the interviews and do your best. This, coming from someone on the outside looking in.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I can honestly say that we had/have many older FOs at my regional. Some started in their 50s and upgraded to captain already. It depends on where you go. Some of the smaller commuters probably are your best bet.

ShuttleAmerica
Commutair
Chicago Express (if they continue operating)
Colgan
Great Lakes

Just a thought.

 

[bobbysamd]

I can honestly say that we had/have many older FOs at my regional. Some started in their 50s and upgraded to captain already . . . .

Is that started at your regional in their fifties after flying for a while or started flying in their fifties and being hired?

I have a friend my age (54) who had been flying for years and who had interviewed with Trans States six years ago, during the height of that boom. He had high total time and fair-to-middlin' multi time - not enough in proportion to his total but enough to get him through the door. Trans States rejected him. He found out that he was rejected flat-out because of his age. During the same time period, circa 1998, he had a similar experence at Aloha Island Air.

 

[pilotyip]

I was 34 when I left the Navy and had 2500 hours most of it multi engine turbine PIC in a 100,000 pound + P-3, an ATP with an L-188 type. Therefore, after being in the Navy 11 years, I averaged under 250 hr per year, typical military flt time. The majors told me my age and hours were out of ratio, back then being over 30 and getting a major interview was difficult. So even back in the 70's being older was a factor also.

 

[Snakum]

2years2go ... I've been reading here for five years about how lousy the life of a pilot is. The pay sucks, the hours suck, managment sucks, commuting sucks ... life in general just plain sucks if you make a living in the pointy end or in the back, I reckon. However, much like yourself, knowing all the bad aspects, I'm still busting my butt to get up front. It's all I have ever wanted to do.

Here's my current gig:

Averaging 70 hours per week over the last five years, including a huge number of late night/early morning client emergency calls, on the road a lot, working practically every weekend, spending the night on the couch in the dayroom once or twice per week when we're rolling out a new product, worked for less than $1000 per month for a while and had a few weeks of 100+ hours during that time, as well.

And you know what? I still actually look forward to coming to work most days, I still actually like my job, I still care for the people I work for and with, I give 125% every single day regardless of the size of my check at the end of the month because that's what is required. For me, the challenge of the job and knowing at the end of every single day how I contributed to our growth or became a wrench crunching in the gears is my reward. I believe in the company and so I fight for it every day, seven days per week.

So as long as I believe (and I do) that aviation will provide the same kind of challenges and the same kind of satisfaction, and at the same time allow me to do something for a living that I do as a hobby and LOVE ... I don't really care what the downside is, within reason. Every job has it's bad points.

And that's kinda the whole thing in a nutshell isn't it? If you don't believe in what you're doing, and if it is driving you nuts beyond mere belly-aching and venting (which we all do sometimes) ... isn't it time to go do something else? Even being a pornstar becomes a job eventually, as a retired Piedmont/US Air Captain told me once.

Probably like you, I'd trade with ANY of these guys who flies for a living.

Minh

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination - back then

I was 34 when I left the Navy and had 2500 hours most of it multi engine turbine PIC in a 100,000 pound + P-3, an ATP with an L-188 type. Therefore, after being in the Navy 11 years, I averaged under 250 hr per year, typical military flt time. The majors told me my age and hours were out of ratio, back then being over 30 and getting a major interview was difficult. So even back in the 70's being older was a factor also.

. . . . which is surprising to hear, considering that being a military pilot usually puts one in front of the line.

However, thirty years ago, the economy was down and airlines were not really hiring. I met a gentleman who was a Buff pilot in the late '60s. He flew combat over Viet Nam and had all the desirable heavy military TJPIC that accrues from flying B-52s. He told me he tried for the longest time to get an airline seat. He said the day he was to start law school Delta called. He opted for law school.

 

[2yrs2go]

Probably like you, I'd trade with ANY of these guys who flies for a living.



Minh

I agree with you completely.


And, I loved the road. In four years of working the line, I remember only one day where I had anything resembling a really bad day. It was not my crew's fault, my airline, weather or MX. It was security issues. Go figure.


And, yes, I am a club member. PROUDLY. I earned it through fours years of reserve, long days, low pay, rotating crews, recruiting flight attendants, training flight attendants (yeah, I was an IOE instructor as well - further entrenching my club membership), prop planes with no pressurization, jets with no heat/ac, emergencies, weather, TSA, lousy hotels, fattening food, the ongoing pursuit of a smoking area, etc, etc, etc.


For my membership I made some great friends, discovered that I just might be able to do something I only ever dreamed of doing, laughed like nobody's business, met some of the most amazing people on my planes, saw some of the neatest things this country has to offer - in places most folks will never get to visit (how many people really go to BGM, GSP, TOL, SBN, TRI, CAE, ERI etc.), camaraderie like I have never experienced in the working world, etc, The list of good, far out ways the list of bad.


That is the reason I suggested to the original poster that he/she look into a job as a regional FA to see if the lifestyle works. And have a good time while making the decision.

 

[Goose Egg]

I've been reading here for five years about how lousy the life of a pilot is... I'm still busting my butt to get up front. It's all I have ever wanted to do... Probably like you, I'd trade with ANY of these guys who flies for a living.

Speaking of which, I'm convinced that satisfaction levels in anything, be it work, relationships, or anything else have little to do with the actual circumstance and everything to do with expectations. Sure, the life of an airline pilot can be hard--and all in that segment face similar circumstance--but if it works for you, i.e. fits your expectation levels, then you will be happy in that job. If not, you'll find an outlet like flightinfo to vent your frustrations.

Is airline flying absolutely for me? I don't know. But I like to think that I'm flexible enough that other types of flying jobs would also be appealing. My expectation is that I will need to be flexible. In fact, I wouldn't feel to bad about doing something else in conjunction with flying. Just as long as I get some flying in there somehow.

In short, I feel like the "airline or bust" attitude can be a little hazardous, if for no other reason that it blinds you to other possibilities along the way.

-Goose

 

[SWA Aviator]

Your only too old if you're Dead!

 

[sorenk]

I've seen some encouraging applications from hired pilot over 40 on the aviation interviews site.

 

[hmmurdock]

Greetings..

There is no telling if you are suited for the industry or not. Only you can answer that question. I will say that once fantasy met reality for me, the airline industry was not all it was cracked up to be. I have a hard time recommending this industry to anyone right now, especially anyone over 40. I personnally value dependability in my career and I dont get that from flying, right now at least. If I were you I would think twice about aviation as a career, especially if you have a wife and/or kids.



Take care

 

[Jim320]

It seems like this business goes in 10 year cycles. Timing is everything. I think now is a good time to be training for the next up ward trend. It could be at least 5 years or more before it happens. Your age will not prevent you from making it. I know of many who have done it after 40. I just flew with a guy who ran into his former dentist flying a RJ for Mesa.



There are a lot more opportunities now than when I started. There were not many commuters back than like there are now. You can go through programs now like Mesa’s or Comair and get into the right seat of a turbo prop or jet with not much time. It sure beats flying night cargo like when I started out, a lot safer to!



If you have a family you have to consider some of the life style issues others have told you about. It is not a 9-5 job. If flying is a passion and your family supports you I would say go for it. Just seek advice from people who are where you want to be in aviation.



Best of luck



Jim



http://www.alphapilottraining.com

 

[sorenk]

Thanks for both sides. I don't have a wife, and still want to commit to a lifelong desire of flying. Even at 37. The best advice I've heard so far has been to commit to each level no matter what it is CFI, freight, ect...and have a plan of so many years at each level, BUT be satisfied where youre at. I welcome opposing viewpoints. Yet still 90% sure I want to take the plunge.