Am I Too Old?

[hangar7guy]

Yes. My Communications degree really didn't prepare me for much, except working in the media. I have a BA from a 4-year university. Thing is, when I began college I didn;t know what I wanted to major in. This college did not have any sort of aviation program though.

Wow, sounds like a carbon copy of my college background! Other than a three-month stint with a weekly newspaper (which I hated), I hardly did anything with my Journalism degree.

To answer a question in your previous post regarding how you know if you're really suited to an aviation career: You don't. You might get into this for a few years and discover that doing it all the time as a means of putting bread on your table isn't nearly as enjoyable as your days as a student pilot. That's why the best advice is probably to stay flexible. Don't get fixated on any one job, whether it be airlines, corporate, charter and so on. Have an alternate plan, just in case the original doesn't work out.

And have some other area of expertise...you might find that you need to combine it and your flying skills. I know some people who have been hired as civilian pilots in law enforcement agencies (state police, for example).

I'm by no means a career counseling expert, but I hope the above might give you a few small morsels of food for thought. Again, good luck.

 

[2yrs2go]

Ok. more questions. How do you know if it is the right choice (flying, as a career)? What I mean is, how do you know if it is something you are suited for, physically and mentally? I suppose I could take one of those "discovery flights"...which seems like a great idea. And I probably should go get a physical before spending money...not that I need it to take the training but if I'm not going to pass then I won't bother (I'm pretty sure I'd pass...) I would hate to begin training and then find that its way over my head, if that makes any sense.

I should have done this when I was 21 but I pissed away my time in college when I could have gotten on an airline during the expansion years in the 80s and the run-up of the 90s.

A couple of things come to mind as I am in virtually the same position as you are.



Do the discovery flight.



Ask yourself if you can handle the lifestyle. It amazes me the number of people, from all backgrounds, who do not understand what life in the airline world is really like. I, hands down, love it. Others hate it. There are some very unique working conditions associated with airline work. I have worked for the past few years at a regional as a flight attendant. While in now way, shape or form, would I compare the amount of knowledge required to be a pilot with that of an FA, it gave me some good info on the lifestyle, etc. Many regionals are hiring FA's right now. If you can stand the pay, and have a modicum of customer service skills, it could open your eyes to a lot of things that are sort of intangible. Do it for six months and then bail. Just make sure you give notice, as you may want to work there later.



GOOD LUCK! Maybe in a couple of years we will be lucky enough to be in a class together at Great Lakes!

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

As always, I present the opposing viewpoint on this issue.

I already had been flying for several years when, in 1987, at age 36, I decided to change careers to aviation. I had two friends about my age who made it to the regionals. There was buzz aplenty about a pilot shortage, and, I thought, if they could do it, I could do it. I only needed my Commercial multi. I already had my degree for several years.

I earned my multi, and with about 900 hours and 30 of multi, began looking for jobs. I sent materials everywhere, especially to the regionals and those that advertised low multi, but got few responses and no phone calls during that hiring boom. I applied to the regional where one of my friends had been hired. I applied to freight. I talked to a CV240 operator on the field. I talked to the pilot of the governor's airplane. I helped wash a corporate King Air several times in hopes of getting a few hours (I got about 1.1). I tried to do everything one is supposed to do. Finally, about ten months later, in 1988, I was hired to instruct at ERAU. I think it helped that I finished my MEI the weekend before and had a degree.

At Riddle, I earned my ATP, type rating, and built multi, and, finally, after nearly three years of trying, finally had some regional interviews. The weekend before my first interview, in 1990, Saddam had invaded Kuwait; during this time the economy tanked and the hiring boom ended. In all, I had four interviews and a cattle call, but no offers.

But hiring continued during the Gulf War and recession. I know, because my Riddle colleagues, who had similar or lesser quals than me but were fifteen or more years younger (I was forty) were being hired at the same regionals to which I applied but heard nothing! Similar things happened to friends of mine the same age. And, if you do not believe that age discrimination is still practiced, take a lesson from one of my friends. About six years ago, in 1999, at age 48, Trans States interviewed him. He was not hired - and found out he was not hired because of his age. He said the same thing happened to him during the same time period at Aloha Island Air.

In all, I spent six years trying to get a regional airline job, unsuccessfully, and I believe I was discriminated against because of age.

Do not believe that you can conceal your age. Employers can calculate your age to within a few years simply by reviewing your employment history - which you must disclose honestly. Moreover, if you get to the interview you will be asked for your airman certificates. Your certificates will reveal your age immediately.

About a year ago, I presented legal research on airline age discrimination in this thread. I only ask that you read it through. You'll see how airlines justify their discriminatory practices. You'll see that others here have had similar experiences, and you'll read expert comments from an H.R. professional about the practice of age discrimination.

I fully expect my comments on this subject to draw invective - they usually do - as opposed to reasoned, logical rebuttals. Do it. Bring it on. I am waiting. I have proved my case. The proof is there, by way of personal experiences, legal authority, and expert opinion.

I present my story primarily to warn you that the same thing can happen to you. Yes, I feel that you are too old, if you want the regionals. You might have a chance in corporate or freight, and definitely as a career instructor. Professional aviation, especially at the regionals, practices age discrimination against older career changers. I do not believe that age discrimination is practiced against over-forty pilots who have been in the business for years.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hiring dud

There will be hiring boom in 2007, because there is always a hiring boom in years ending in 7.

Is that anecdotal, or merely coincidence?

Now there may not be a lot of jobs at the legacy airlines like there was in 1967, 1977, 1987 and 1997. But there will be a lot of jobs. FAA predicts this year passenger volume will surpass 2001. Most growth will come in smaller airplanes. So that means to move the same number of people in smaller airplanes you will need more pilots. Look at ComAir, three new bases, hiring, ASA hiring, MESA hiring, there is a lot of hiring going on. 6,000 pilot jobs last year, 8,000 pilot jobs this year and 14,000 in 2007.

Reading those Kit Darby pilot shortage sophistries again, Yip? Kit was pushing those same figures back in 1987!

Don't hold your breath about a 2007 hiring boom. Read this thread. Don't forget the furloughees, who must be recalled before any new hiring can take place.

The pilot shortage is a lie. You'll see after you start looking for jobs. It has been said that for every single opening at the airlines there are at least three-thousand qualified pilots vying for it.

As far as Mesa goes, I have read that Mesa is interviewing but successful applicants are going into a pool. Being pooled is not the same as being hired.

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby, What is a hiring boom?

What is a hiring boom? Twice as many pilots being hired in 2007 as 2004? 3X's as many as 2004? What is a boom? Hiirng will make a major increase by 2007. I have been through this too many times; I am seeing the same things I saw in 1985, 1995. Pinnicle is running display ads in USA Today, Netjets is advertising. ComAir is pushing for pilots, and the hiring pressure is rising. These are not the DAL, NWA, UAL jobs of the late 90's, but the smaller airplane jobs. The age 60 thing will not have a significant effect on hiring, because it will primarily effect only the older airlines, the frac's, 135 jobs already have no age limit. Maybe the rising of 121-retirement age might reduce the 2007 hiring by about 10%

 

[bobbysamd]

Define "boom"

What is a hiring boom? Twice as many pilots being hired in 2007 as 2004? 3X's as many as 2004? What is a boom? Hiirng will make a major increase by 2007.

At the outset, Yip, you raised the issue in your post above. So, why don't you define "boom"?

There is always hiring, even in bad times. It's hard to quantify what is, or is not, a boom. As soon as the majors start hiring as they did in 1987-'90, hiring 300-500 new pilots per company per year, come back to me. At the moment, two years from your projected hiring "boom," Yip, the majors are not hiring; in fact, some might soon be putting extremely well-qualified pilots on the streets if they fail. They would have first dibs on the myriad of regional jobs you are predicting, not lower-time pilots and especially not over-40 career changers.

Just take a look at the links Falcon Capt. gave in his post on the other thread. Also, read this Rocky Mountain News article from Saturday, March 26. Read down to this paragraph in the article:

Industry watchers say the glory days of airline employment likely is a thing of the past. While pay levels, perks, work rules and benefits will improve over time, it's doubtful they will return to pre-Sept. 11 levels.

Now, do you still believe there will be a hiring "boom" in 2007?

I will pit this newspaper article against any Kit Darby propaganda anytime.

 

[pilotyip]

Bobby applied at the wrong places

Bobby, you applied at the wrong places, you should have applied at Ameristar, Reliant, Kalitta (litter), Grand, etc. They would have snapped you up in a heartbeat. Then in the late 90's when Spirit, AirTran were not on the radar screen of pilots looking for major jobs, you with your 1000 Hr TJ PIC could have slipped into a decent passenger hauling big airplane job. No degree required at any of those places

 

[bobbysamd]

Freight hiring

Bobby, you applied at the wrong places, you should have applied at Ameristar, Reliant, Kalitta (litter), Grand, etc. They would have snapped you up in a heartbeat.

Actually, I did apply to similar companies. I don't recall the company's name, but it flew DC-3s from your home town of YIP. I got a call back, but that was it. I don't remember all the names. I remember applying to some outfit called PromptAir. The CV240 outfit was called something like Florida Air Transport. It contracted with Dow-Jones to haul the Wall Street Journal from PWA to Memphis. They were right on my home field, PWA. I went there personally a few times. Nothing.

I recall that at that time Connie Kalitta was flying equipment that I didn't have a prayer of getting with my lightplane-only experience. Moreover, as always, Kalitta, back then, was teetering on failure.

Do you mean MGM Grand? That was a turbojet, for which I was completely unqualified.

During that period, I actually had better quals for the regionals than for freight. The regionals, including but not limited to, ASA, Mesa, Mesaba, Express I, WingsWest, Simmons, Nashville Eagle, WestAir/United Express, Comair, Jetstream International, SkyWest, Horizon, Scenic, Lakes, GP-Express, Skyway, CONEX, Henson, Crown Air, StatesWest, were hiring pilots with flight instructor experience only, whose most advanced airplane had been Seminoles - and they were hiring like crazy. I applied to AWA; in the early '90s they were flying Dash 8s, so I thought I had a chance. That was a boom. I applied to most of them - some, repeatedly, for six years. It seemed like the right direction to go. Read my comments above about how regionals were picking up my Riddle colleagues who had flight instruction experience only (and degrees).

No degree required at any of those places

Pity that I went to college and earned a degree, isn't it? Not!

But, seriously, it was a pity that I didn't start flying ten years sooner. My father, of blessed memory, who knew nothing about the aviation business, said that to me many times.

Learn from my experiences.

 

[JAFI]

The mystery of why do they hire, who they hire. My opinion, for what it is worth:

Timing, right place at the right time.

Familiarity, "You are one of "us" so you will fit in. This includes former corporate, AG, airline, Military, etc. Happens many, many times, IMHO.

Cost, (you will work for less and don't know enough to ask for more money)

Longevity, you won't leave to get a better job.

They "like" you. (For what ever reason).
--and one of my favorate:--
"You don't know more than me"


If the stack or resumes' is 200 sheets thick, they may only look at the top 50 or so until they get the 10 or 20 they need to interview. Most every one who shows up for an interview is "qualified" for the job. The rest is not about you, it is about your perceived "fit" into the organization or place.



Many of my old indusrty co-workers are on the street for the second or third time and ask me about employment. Some are making half to a third of the salary they had at the same job. Many have left flying to open a Coffee shop or gone into Real Estate. It is a crap shoot any way you look at it.



JAFI

 

[CapnVegetto]

777, are you dead set on airlines? Or are you possibly interested in a corporate/135 job? There's no age 60 rule to hinder you there.

 

[apcooper]

Just out of curiousity what age usually are we talking about in this thread when we have to start to worry about age discrimination?

 

[bobbysamd]

Age discrimination

Just out of curiousity what age usually are we talking about in this thread when we have to start to worry about age discrimination?

Let me make clear that my complaint is strictly about older career changers. Once again, I do not believe that there is clear-cut age discrimination against over-40 career pilots who started out young and who've been "club" members, i.e., those with good corporate time, 135 time, or military time.

Having said that, if you are over thirty-five and want to change careers to aviation, you need to consider age discrimination very carefully as part of your decision.

 

[bobbysamd]

Familiarity (breeding contempt - for others) and Longevity - then and now

Familiarity, "You are one of "us" so you will fit in. This includes former corporate, AG, airline, Military, etc. Happens many, many times, IMHO.

Strongly implying, then, that a non-"club" member, i.e, a career changer, would be barred from "membership" . . . .

Longevity, you won't leave to get a better job . . .

I dunno about that. I was told that my age would work in my favor because they would know I wouldn't leave. But, for that very same reason, I don't feel I was considered.

I believe they were afraid that I would stay, top out at scale and eventually vest in the retirement plan, all of which would have cost them money. Back then, the regionals figured that younger pilots would not stay, not top out at scale, not vest in the retirement plan, and be cheaper than someone who would stay. I would submit that now younger pilots who cannot move up will stay, top out, vest, and cost them money. It'll serve 'em right.

You're right - no matter who you are, it's a crapshoot. But for older aspirants, the dice are loaded against them, with the likely result being snake eyes.

 

[CapnVegetto]

bobbysamd

Do you work for Mesa? I used to.

 

[bobbysamd]

Do you work for Mesa? I used to.

I worked for MAPD briefly about twelve years ago. I never flew for the airline itself. I interviewed for the airline in 1990 and was not hired. The school hired me in 1993.

Both are long stories. Search the board for both and/or PM me, if you want.

 

[Griff]

If It Feels Good......

I am pushing 42, two kids and a wife of twenty years as of the 30th of this month. What have I learned...... Attitude, Desire, Cash, Back-Up Plan, and a supporting spouse and kids really help. Have a made it yet.... nope. Will I... yup. Started working for a cargo outfit and bailed out fast, had a bad feeling from the first day of training. Didn't want to give up my ticket or my life for that outfit even though it was the best "time" I could have put in my log. What I am doing now is finishing my instructor tickets. I like people and teaching. Figure it is a great way to network. Aviation is way cool. At the very least I can teach my kids to fly and see some really awesome sunrises and sunsets. We live from paycheck to paycheck, so money has always been an issue. I know all this feel good stuff doesn't put food on the table but, my advise to you is to find your own plan and stick to it. Trust Your Gut! Opportunity is everywhere. Sniff, sniff..... I'll stop now. Good Luck And Clear Skies!

 

[2yrs2go]

Bobby, thanks for all the info to consider.



This choice, especially at mid career and given the current state of the industry, is a risky one. I have a sneaky suspicion that no amount of wise caution will dissuade those of us in the throws of the changeover to give it a second thought. There really is no logical justification for putting our lives (including our wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends, children, parents) on hold, taking on large amounts of debt, eating Ramen Noodles and PB and J day in and day out, etc. to take a job that pays 15-20k the first year out.



Aviation is something you dream about doing. It is something you want. Logic has little place in a dream.

 

[bobbysamd]

You have been warned . . . .

This choice, especially at mid career and given the current state of the industry, is a risky one. I have a sneaky suspicion that no amount of wise caution will dissuade those of us in the throws of the changeover to give it a second thought. There really is no logical justification for putting our lives (including our wives, husbands, boyfriends, girlfriends, children, parents) on hold, taking on large amounts of debt, eating Ramen Noodles and PB and J day in and day out, etc. to take a job that pays 15-20k the first year out.
Aviation is something you dream about doing. It is something you want. Logic has little place in a dream.

I agree. I lived the "dream" for several years until it hit me that when you get older dreams must give way to practicality and pragmatism. And, I have news for you. You might be eating Ramen and PB & J and be making $15-$20K for more than the first year, and without health insurance and other benies to which you are accustomed. Not to mention that you might find yourself in semiannual arguments with management about getting even that much money.

Given the uncertainties of the career and the economy, I would almost advise younger people as well as older people to consider their decision very carefully - though younger people have plenty of time to start another career if aviation does not work out. When you're older, such as I was, you do not have that time. So, knowing what I know, I again urge you to consider your decision - and its potential impact on your life and family - very carefully.

I also ask that you read this Rocky Mountain News article about cutbacks forced onto airline employees, including pilots, before deciding to change careers to aviation.

 

[JAFI]

I dunno about that. I was told that my age would work in my favor because they would know I wouldn't leave. But, for that very same reason, I don't feel I was considered.

You're right - no matter who you are, it's a crapshoot. But for older aspirants, the dice are loaded against them, with the likely result being snake eyes.

Bobby, Sometimes the employer wants you to leave so you don't have the higher wage and sometimes they want tyou to stay a long time so they have a stable work force, no matter what it costs. And this can change in a heart beat when a new boss is hired.

Once I spent two years trying to get hired by several companies where I knew the chief pilots on the field. I could not even get hired for the day when they needed some one to seat fill for a trip. I was talking to one of the pilots about getting hired and he told me I would never get hired. I asked why. He said that I had more experience than the chief pilot. He was just protecting his job...

If I had to do it all over again I would have become a plumber. At the end of the day you wash your hands and forget about work. You also get paid more to work weekends and holidays AND you make enough to buy a single engine airplane to go play on nice days.
JAFI

 

[bobbysamd]

Plumbing v. flying

If I had to do it all over again I would have become a plumber. At the end of the day you wash your hands and forget about work. You also get paid more to work weekends and holidays AND you make enough to buy a single engine airplane to go play on nice days.

You're right. My plumber is $70 per hour plus truck fee.