am I a pilot whore?

[iaflyer]

Tough decision

Let me make sure I have my facts right - you were hired to work line service at this company. After you got your commerical certificate, the company started letting you reposition customer's aircraft before and after maintenance.

It doesn't sound like a true job, employed as a pilot. You're employed as a line guy, with "benefits" of flying an airplane for free (but not getting paid either). It seems you are free to turn down a flight, or leave that company and seek employment as a pilot elsewhere. The problem (and I've been there, believe me) is with under 300 hours, and no CFI, there aren't many jobs.

While it's true you're not getting paid to fly, the flight time is valuable to you. I would say that as long as the flight time is valuable to you, and there isn't a chance they will pay you - continue doing it. Eventually they will either move you into the flight department (probably not any time soon though) or you'll be able to get a pilot job elsewhere.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned is that there might be good connections made by doing what you are doing. The Chief Pilot or DO is most likely connected in the aviation world where you live. By doing a good job delivering aircraft, you might get the nod for a job elsewhere that you wouldn't otherwise be considered for.

Aviation is full of tough decisions - just wait until there is pressure to complete a flight, maintenance issues to decide, or career decisions to make. In the end, you are the one who has to live with the decision - although you'll discover plenty of other people will second-guess you.

iaflyer

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I gotta go with iaflyer here.

You are a line guy. That is your job. You are not employed as a pilot. But your company allows you to fly airplanes and not have to pay for it. That is a bonus for you.

This company is also not REQUIRING you to do the flying is it? Are they counting on your free services to move airplanes?

This company really is doing you a favor. If they start counting on you to do more and more of the flying--then you need to worry about getting paid. But while it's just a fringe benefit of working the line--you aren't hurting anybody. (it's not like they would hire another pilot if you stopped flying would they?)

Actually, I'd make sure you don't screw them over this issue. Right now, they are investing in you (for an admittedly low wage). But trust me, they are just trying to help out a low time pilot get a leg up, and possibly be able to hire them into a real pilot position sometime in the future.

Dan

 

[Skaz]

this is bull, Earl is working as a professional pilot and doing it for free. that means that he is taking the job one of us is working hard for.
I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free. You got a money tree in the back yard, Earl? If so please do mail me some seedpods, I have to work for a living.
We had a word, in the SADF, for someone that does to the rest of us that Earl is doing...:"maatjie naaier" loosely translated it means :" buddy f - u - c- k - e - r "

 

[TXCAP4228]

this is bull, Earl is working as a professional pilot and doing it for free. that means that he is taking the job one of us is working hard for.
I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free. You got a money tree in the back yard, Earl? If so please do mail me some seedpods, I have to work for a living.
We had a word, in the SADF, for someone that does to the rest of us that Earl is doing...:"maatjie naaier" loosely translated it means :" buddy f - u - c- k - e - r "

Ok Skaz, I'll give you a couple of things to think about:

1) In order for this to be true, you would have to be willing to do the same work and his company would have to be willing to pay you.
2) You should also have to explain why some arbitrary wage should be set that the market does not support.

Maybe its easy for you to cuss at Earl to make yourself feel better, but I won't ask you to justify that. Instead, I'll ask you why exactly Earl owes it to you to insist on being paid. His position allows him to build time and if he's willing to do that then more power to him. The standard you set for right and wrong in your post was basedon not F&CKING you buddy. If you say he's wrong and must insist on being paid, chances are he'll lose the chance to do any of that flying at all. If that happens, then the position you're taking would actually harm him. So who is F&CKING whom?

Sounds to me like you don't give a sh!t about him but you're disguising it by saying you're interest is the benefit of all pilots.

Next time try less cussing and better arguments.

 

[Skaz]

TXCAP4228 your arguments are flawed from the outset. Show me an airline captain thats willing to work for free....do you work for free? I dont, I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am today and I'm proud of my achievements and I expect to be compensated, as a professional in a professional industry, for my services rendered. We are of a similar standard to that of doctors, lawyers, professors etc, they dont work for free do they?

I am willing to do and HAVE DONE the kind of work Earl speaks of. Guess what....I got paid for it too. In my company we had two blokes rocke up who arranged with CEO that they would fly on freight runs as copilots for free. This resulted in freelance pilots getting the boot and sitting without jobs, not getting paid and still having to feed their families and clothe their children.
This is bullsh*t. Even somebody as ignorant or naive as you cant argue with that. We made sure they felt VERY unwelcome and got the hell outta the company.
If the company Earl is flying for free for is a charity or NGO, then by all means fly for free. The Red Cross in South Africa has a PC12 that airline guys flies for free as a humanitarian service. Go fly BN2's or C182 for missionary outfits. CZheck climbto350, theres jobs on there.
If the company he flies for is a profit earning, capitalist economy based bussiness, then he should get paid for the work he does. Hes willingness to work for free degrades the position of ALL pilots in the industry, nevermind which company in what country you fly for. We all suffer because of it.
I am not cussing Earl to make myself feel better about anything, I dont have to, in fact I'm trying to express to him that what he is doing, is selling HIMSELF and the rest of US short.
Earl you said yourself :"I don't want to set any more of a precedence for dragging down the payscale for pilots"....then WHY are you working for free!?! you are draggin down YOUR OWN payscale...they dont want to pay you....go look somewhere else where you are respected as a professional, an employee a person and get paid accordingly!
another qoute:" would assume that a CFI wouldn't be willing to work for free simply becuase they're not having to pay for their flight time." they sure dont....not in Afrika and for d*mn sure not in the States. they train us....what does that tell you?
If you go to the Dentist, does he charge you for services rendered? does the hairdresser, does the supermarket?Of course they do, Communism is dead...supply and demand, free market economics and capitalism is alive and well.Even if the company you worked for just feeds you and lets you sleep under the stairs in the hanger, thats marginal, but ok, flying for free is not.

Earl, I dont know you, nor do I know what road you have had to travel to get where you are today, but if you were paid in your previous job, why not in this one? The company you are working for got it good....they have somebody thats willing to work hard to get somewhere, and they dont have to pay him!free labour, fantastic....for them, not you. Are you going to settle flying and working hard for nothing all your career as a pilot? I wouldnt think so. You might be inexperienced in aviation and the politics involved, as you can see there are plenty , but you are now by your actions and willingness to work for free, not only depriving yourself of an income, but also the next guy who wants to earn a living as a pilot, provide for he's family and have a rewarding and fullfilling career as a pilot.

If not for airmanship,professional ethics, plain common sense and logic, then for your own sense of selfworth and pride.......dont accept to work for nothing.

 

[enigma]

I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free.

Skaz, when you say PFT are you talking about buying training, or are you talking about buying a job? PFT is a situation in which an operator requires newhires, regardless of previous qualifications to pay for their initial training. PFT is far worse than a lineman picking up a bit of SE time. PFT is buying a job. When an operator makes hiring decisions based upon an applicants checkbook, that's PFT. If you don't like "backstabbers" working for free, then surely you must be incensed about a pilot backstabbing us all when he agrees to buy a job. The guy flying for free affects us all in only a very small way, the PFT'r directly affects every potential newhire at his PFT company.

The sad thing is, the company would pay for the initial training itself, were it not for misguided pilots buying the job.

I remember when a current, qualified E120 pilot couldn't get a job at a PFT carrier without paying $12K for his "training". I submit that the idiots who were paying for that initial training screwed the other pilots much harder than the lineman who picks up a few hours in a mooney.

8N

 

[Timebuilder]

In the 60's and 70's when Cessna, Beech and Piper were putting out airplanes by the thousands, someone had to move them from the factories to the sales/training outlets. I would wager that many of the current senior airline captains used to build time ferrying these new 150's, 172's, 140's, etc etc etc.....and they never got a penny of cash for doing it. But, they got that valuable flight time, which helped them get the jobs they are now paid VERY well to do.

Using the logic of this thread, we should offer to let novice gardners cut out grass for free, so they can later become expert landscapers.

Car dealerships should use inexperienced 16 year olds to deliver new cars, because they will enjoy the experience of driving the cars for free.

We can come up with an number of absurd analogies to illustrate this, I'm certain. Why is is different when it comes to aviation?

Because WE LET IT BE SO.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Skaz....

TXCAP4228 your arguments are flawed from the outset. Show me an airline captain thats willing to work for free....do you work for free? I dont, I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am today and I'm proud of my achievements and I expect to be compensated, as a professional in a professional industry, for my services rendered. We are of a similar standard to that of doctors, lawyers, professors etc, they dont work for free do they?

1) Earl is not an airline captain. In his words he's a newly minted commercial pilot. With his hours and experience he can't get a paying flight job anywhere. However, if his company let's him reposition airplanes on .5 hour flights every once and a while, why shouldn't he do that?
2) He is NOT taking anyone's job. You would not do this job for what the company would be willing to pay you. This is exactly why I call your argument disingenuous.
3) The only way Earl can build time is either to pay for it or grab maintenance or repositioning flights like he's doing. I say there's nothing wrong with that.
4) On the other hand, I'd say that if he followed your insistence that he not do the work for free he might actually lose the chance to do this flying, which is a real harm to him. So I ask you Skaz, who is looking out for whom?
5) Doctors, Lawyers and Professors have ALL worked for free when they were in training. Here's another thought, just to twist your tailfeathers a little more, Doctors, Lawyers and Professors ALL PAID FOR THEIR TRAINING. You may have also heard of pro bono work.....

If you go to the Dentist, does he charge you for services rendered? does the hairdresser, does the supermarket?Of course they do, Communism is dead...supply and demand, free market economics and capitalism is alive and well.Even if the company you worked for just feeds you and lets you sleep under the stairs in the hanger, thats marginal, but ok, flying for free is not.

The Dentists went through an internship. When I was in college there was a hairdressing school where I went to get haircuts for free.

Dude, don't even begin to try to explain to me how a free market works. You're on thin ice here. The market value of the work Earl is doing is not supportable beyond simply allowing him a chance to log time. You can be righteously indignant all you want but that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of pilots WOULD do that for free and that if the company did have to pay Earl for repositioning it might well change the structure of the business and then no one would be able to make these flights.

I told Earl not to cheat himself and not to get cheated. At some point, when he has more time, skill, and more to offer a potential employer, I fully expect him to ask for payment in the form of wages. But the upshot is that in his current situation there's nothing wrong with taking these flights for free if he is willing to.

Skaz, I see your point and don't necessarily disagree that he should be compensated. But my point is that his compensation does not have to be a monetary wage. The flight time he gets to log is worth a lot of cash that he won't have to spend. If that works for him, why not?

 

[wingnutt]

...especially if he talks to them and gets some sort of agreement to the effect that when he does acquire their minimuns, he is allowed on-line as a paid pilot. more often than not, the guys that do this sort of thing are merely increasing their "stock" in that company, so that when the time comes, they are allowed in.

on the other hand...if there is no more than a snowballs chance in he11 of him getting online, then it may be a waste of time, and worth it for him to investigate other avenues

P.S. interesting thread

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Wingnutt has an excellent idea. I would certainly think about getting an agreement like that. It will show the company that he is not just in it for the free flight time, and it will give Earl a bit of "job security" if you will. Both parties can come out ahead that way.

Dan

 

[Earl Williams]

Thanks again for everyone's replies.

Skaz, I respect your opinion (could have done without the immature name-calling, but so be it) and see where you're coming from with your arguement...thus the reason I'm trying to see both sides of this subject and formulate a conclusion as to whether or not it's something that is common, and in my best interest. As with most, I've put myself into debt paying for my training, and WISH I were wealthy enough to work for free (on the contrary, I'm broke and working an 8-hour shift on the line every day to barely keep my head above water).

By no means am I taking a "job" away from another qualified pilot (or one that's in a position to be employed in this market right now). In speaking with one of the more experienced company pilots (who's been there 13 years) this particular "position" has strictly been offered to guys/gals such as myself...low-time (I've got 280 hours), newly-minted commercial pilots looking to build time (and it's only a matter of a few hours here and there per week, at best). Trust me, the charter pilots (i.e "experienced") scoff at this work, and only do so if guys like me are unavailable (then, by being "on call", they're summoned in). There are around 4-5 other pilots working with me on the line (ranging from those working on their Private, to a couple CFI's). The one's that have not obtained the necessary Commercial certificate to act in this capacity fully know the position (if you can call it that) is unpaid...yet each and every one of them is licking their chops to do it. So, they're my competition...not the guys with 1,200 hours or so trying to fly 135 for the company.

There have been instances whereby others who have been in my situation have indeed worked their way into the charter department. In fact, when the Mooney's used to be on the company's 135 certificate, low-timers would do this until they hit the minimum 500 hours for 135 VFR (after which, they would start getting paid as a charter pilot). Unfortunately, those 135 VFR days are gone, and the 1200 TT minimum applies. So, there's no doubt that something like this COULD develop into a paid position within the flight department. I certainly hope I could make this transition, eventually.

 

[bobbysamd]

Non-Aviation P-F-T

Doctors, Lawyers and Professors ALL PAID FOR THEIR TRAINING. You may have also heard of pro bono work.....

That's inaccurate in several ways. Yes, doctors, lawyers and professors paid for their schooling, but not for their training. Each of these professionals graduated with credentials, e.g. M.D., J.D., Ph.D., Ed.D., that can be marketed anywhere within their respective fields. If you pay for training, you have (1) remitted money to a a company as a condition of employment and (2) the training that you have received is esoteric to that specific company.

Perhaps some of these folks are paying their dues while they learn the ropes, but paying dues and paying for training ain't the same.

Anyone, in any job, goes through some initial training. I'll provide two examples. As a broadcaster, you are trained on that radio station's equipment. It'll probably be similar to equipment you've operated all your career, but still different enough that you need some initial supervision. If you are a news reporter, a veteran on your staff will likely take you around on your beat and introduce you around. In any law firm, if you are a new attorney, you will be supervised. You will be trained on the lawfirm's equipment and its office systems. In all of these jobs, from the day you start work you will be paid. You will not have to pay the company for your training.

Finally, at least in Colorado, all attorneys have to do a certain amount of pro bono work each year. Moreover, at least at some of the big downtown firms in Denver, brand-new associates right out of law school are paid big bucks. Some start in the $60s and some earn six figures at the outset.

Be sure you know what you're talking about before throwing around terms.

 

[machtuck]

plain and simple... If they are compensated for the flight, you should be paid. If they are not, its your call- take the time and call it whatever you like. Good luck

 

[flyboy]

Earl,

As said before, people have done it before you and will continue to do it after you. I've done it and I think that sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Let's face it, in this business time matters. No one wants to pay you to do the kind of job you are talking about and you are taking no one's job from them. Even if you were, do you think they'd care about you if they were on the other side.
You can be one of those low timer single-commercial rated guys that takes the advice of someone like SCUM, SKIDMARK, SKAZ, whatever his name was, and not take those flights for free; Then they won't pay you for it and the owner will do it himself. You will then be without that flight time in a complex aircraft that YOU wouldn't have to pay for. You will still be stuck at relatively low time and scrounging for change to pay for a half hour of flight in a 150. 10 years from now you will probably be back in your corporate job not flying.
Or you can be the kind who takes one for YOUR team early in your career so that you will establish credentials with that company. Maybe you'll get your multi and be able to catch rides on the charter flights and log the part 91 legs. When you get up to 135 mins, they may hire you and soon you may build enough time to do what it is you want to do in aviation.
You gotta give in this business right now or you'll never make it. Things suck for the aviation industry right now and I mean ALL levels. Make the sacrifice now so that there will be a later.

 

[flyboy]

Earl,

In response to your original question, "Am I a Pilot Whore?"

ANSWER: Yes.........and welcome to the club!

 

[bobbysamd]

Career sacrifices and compromises

[P]eople have done it before you and will continue to do it after you. I've done it and I think that sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Let's face it, in this business time matters. No one wants to pay you to do the kind of job you are talking about and you are taking no one's job from them . . . .[Y]ou can be the kind who takes one for YOUR team early in your career so that you will establish credentials with that company. Maybe you'll get your multi and be able to catch rides on the charter flights and log the part 91 legs. When you get up to 135 mins, they may hire you and soon you may build enough time to do what it is you want to do in aviation.

(emphasis added)

I believe this issue turns on whether Earl is taking work away from other pilots by ferrying airplanes for free. If one of the paid pilots at Earl's company was complaining, then perhaps. Then that pilot has a beef with the employer. From what Earl has described, I don't believe this to be the case. It sounds as if the paid pilots have plenty of work and/or better trips.

In this situation, unlike others we all know and which we've debated heavily, I don't see a compensible job be taken away from a pilot. Plenty of new pilots ferry aircraft on short trips. Sure, all flight time should be compensated apart from the time itself. I also would like to see the company owner at least give Earl some meal money or per diem. The bigger picture is described above by Flyboy. It's the chance for Earl to make himself visible, to establish himself, and to work his way into the company's charter operation.

That's another $0.02 from me. Now, if the owner were to check Earl out on these airplanes and make him pay for that training, welllllllllllllll . . . . you know the rest.

 

[wingnutt]

Re: Career sacrifices and compromises

Sure, all flight time should be compensated apart from the time itself.

...and therein lies the complexity that does not always get addressed. if the afore mentioned gardener or hairdresser wants to go off on their own and retain currency, build their time, or gain experience, they do not need to rent a tree or a head of hair from the local "U-Rent-It" for $200.00+ per hour (referring to complex/hi-perf time).

for some, the monetary value of the flight time in and of itself is compensation enough. at least until they reach whatever goal they have set for themselves to be "marketable".

 

[TXCAP4228]

Re: Non-Aviation P-F-T

bobbysamd, I had a feeling I'd see a post from you about this. I think you may have program that scans this board looking for the letters PFT.

That's inaccurate in several ways. Yes, doctors, lawyers and professors paid for their schooling, but not for their training. Each of these professionals graduated with credentials, e.g. M.D., J.D., Ph.D., Ed.D., that can be marketed anywhere within their respective fields. If you pay for training, you have (1) remitted money to a a company as a condition of employment and (2) the training that you have received is esoteric to that specific company.

I don't want to get into the PFT thing again but at some point the line between "graduating with credentials" and "PFT" gets really blurry. If it makes you feel better, I think PFT sucks but there is some of it out there in the world outside of aviation.... its just a question of degrees. More on this below....

Perhaps some of these folks are paying their dues while they learn the ropes, but paying dues and paying for training ain't the same.

I acknowledge that my comparison is a big stretch. Partly I was trying to twist Skaz's tail a little bit. But in a sense what I said is true. Even about the pro bono work. The firm may pay an attorney a salary, but the firm itself makes no revenue from that case. From that perspective, the work is being done for free. Anyway, the same is true for Doctors and College Professors. I realize that's a stretch but my point was to disagree with the absolutism that Sakz was representing - and nothing more.

I won't get into a more detailed discussion with you but I assure you I undertsand these terms very well.

Bottom line, I made this post to question Skaz's absolutist view and to try and frame it from another perspective.

 

[AA717driver]

This reminds me of the punch line from a favorite joke:

"Madam, we've already established what you are. Now we are just haggling over the price."

If you're from a civilian background and haven't done free flying that you should have gotten paid for...you just weren't trying! TC

 

[bobbysamd]

Pro bono v. Aviation P-F-T

Originally posted by TXCAP4228 Even about the pro bono work. The firm may pay an attorney a salary, but the firm itself makes no revenue from that case. From that perspective, the work is being done for free.

But the difference is that pro bono legal work is done as a public service. The same would be true for doctors.

No, I don't have anything like P-F-T ThreadSniffer 1.0 on my machine. Nor was I intending to incite a P-F-T discussion (note the use of the word "incite"). On the other hand, I've never met a P-F-T discussion I didn't like.

I do hope that Earl is getting some food for thought on this issue. With the exception of P-F-T, pilot whoredom is not always a black-and-white issue but is seen frequently in shades of grey.