am I a pilot whore?

[Earl Williams]

Thanks again for everyone's replies.

Skaz, I respect your opinion (could have done without the immature name-calling, but so be it) and see where you're coming from with your arguement...thus the reason I'm trying to see both sides of this subject and formulate a conclusion as to whether or not it's something that is common, and in my best interest. As with most, I've put myself into debt paying for my training, and WISH I were wealthy enough to work for free (on the contrary, I'm broke and working an 8-hour shift on the line every day to barely keep my head above water).

By no means am I taking a "job" away from another qualified pilot (or one that's in a position to be employed in this market right now). In speaking with one of the more experienced company pilots (who's been there 13 years) this particular "position" has strictly been offered to guys/gals such as myself...low-time (I've got 280 hours), newly-minted commercial pilots looking to build time (and it's only a matter of a few hours here and there per week, at best). Trust me, the charter pilots (i.e "experienced") scoff at this work, and only do so if guys like me are unavailable (then, by being "on call", they're summoned in). There are around 4-5 other pilots working with me on the line (ranging from those working on their Private, to a couple CFI's). The one's that have not obtained the necessary Commercial certificate to act in this capacity fully know the position (if you can call it that) is unpaid...yet each and every one of them is licking their chops to do it. So, they're my competition...not the guys with 1,200 hours or so trying to fly 135 for the company.

There have been instances whereby others who have been in my situation have indeed worked their way into the charter department. In fact, when the Mooney's used to be on the company's 135 certificate, low-timers would do this until they hit the minimum 500 hours for 135 VFR (after which, they would start getting paid as a charter pilot). Unfortunately, those 135 VFR days are gone, and the 1200 TT minimum applies. So, there's no doubt that something like this COULD develop into a paid position within the flight department. I certainly hope I could make this transition, eventually.

 

[bobbysamd]

Non-Aviation P-F-T

Doctors, Lawyers and Professors ALL PAID FOR THEIR TRAINING. You may have also heard of pro bono work.....

That's inaccurate in several ways. Yes, doctors, lawyers and professors paid for their schooling, but not for their training. Each of these professionals graduated with credentials, e.g. M.D., J.D., Ph.D., Ed.D., that can be marketed anywhere within their respective fields. If you pay for training, you have (1) remitted money to a a company as a condition of employment and (2) the training that you have received is esoteric to that specific company.

Perhaps some of these folks are paying their dues while they learn the ropes, but paying dues and paying for training ain't the same.

Anyone, in any job, goes through some initial training. I'll provide two examples. As a broadcaster, you are trained on that radio station's equipment. It'll probably be similar to equipment you've operated all your career, but still different enough that you need some initial supervision. If you are a news reporter, a veteran on your staff will likely take you around on your beat and introduce you around. In any law firm, if you are a new attorney, you will be supervised. You will be trained on the lawfirm's equipment and its office systems. In all of these jobs, from the day you start work you will be paid. You will not have to pay the company for your training.

Finally, at least in Colorado, all attorneys have to do a certain amount of pro bono work each year. Moreover, at least at some of the big downtown firms in Denver, brand-new associates right out of law school are paid big bucks. Some start in the $60s and some earn six figures at the outset.

Be sure you know what you're talking about before throwing around terms.

 

[machtuck]

plain and simple... If they are compensated for the flight, you should be paid. If they are not, its your call- take the time and call it whatever you like. Good luck

 

[flyboy]

Earl,

As said before, people have done it before you and will continue to do it after you. I've done it and I think that sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Let's face it, in this business time matters. No one wants to pay you to do the kind of job you are talking about and you are taking no one's job from them. Even if you were, do you think they'd care about you if they were on the other side.
You can be one of those low timer single-commercial rated guys that takes the advice of someone like SCUM, SKIDMARK, SKAZ, whatever his name was, and not take those flights for free; Then they won't pay you for it and the owner will do it himself. You will then be without that flight time in a complex aircraft that YOU wouldn't have to pay for. You will still be stuck at relatively low time and scrounging for change to pay for a half hour of flight in a 150. 10 years from now you will probably be back in your corporate job not flying.
Or you can be the kind who takes one for YOUR team early in your career so that you will establish credentials with that company. Maybe you'll get your multi and be able to catch rides on the charter flights and log the part 91 legs. When you get up to 135 mins, they may hire you and soon you may build enough time to do what it is you want to do in aviation.
You gotta give in this business right now or you'll never make it. Things suck for the aviation industry right now and I mean ALL levels. Make the sacrifice now so that there will be a later.

 

[flyboy]

Earl,

In response to your original question, "Am I a Pilot Whore?"

ANSWER: Yes.........and welcome to the club!

 

[bobbysamd]

Career sacrifices and compromises

[P]eople have done it before you and will continue to do it after you. I've done it and I think that sometimes you have to do what you have to do. Let's face it, in this business time matters. No one wants to pay you to do the kind of job you are talking about and you are taking no one's job from them . . . .[Y]ou can be the kind who takes one for YOUR team early in your career so that you will establish credentials with that company. Maybe you'll get your multi and be able to catch rides on the charter flights and log the part 91 legs. When you get up to 135 mins, they may hire you and soon you may build enough time to do what it is you want to do in aviation.

(emphasis added)

I believe this issue turns on whether Earl is taking work away from other pilots by ferrying airplanes for free. If one of the paid pilots at Earl's company was complaining, then perhaps. Then that pilot has a beef with the employer. From what Earl has described, I don't believe this to be the case. It sounds as if the paid pilots have plenty of work and/or better trips.

In this situation, unlike others we all know and which we've debated heavily, I don't see a compensible job be taken away from a pilot. Plenty of new pilots ferry aircraft on short trips. Sure, all flight time should be compensated apart from the time itself. I also would like to see the company owner at least give Earl some meal money or per diem. The bigger picture is described above by Flyboy. It's the chance for Earl to make himself visible, to establish himself, and to work his way into the company's charter operation.

That's another $0.02 from me. Now, if the owner were to check Earl out on these airplanes and make him pay for that training, welllllllllllllll . . . . you know the rest.

 

[wingnutt]

Re: Career sacrifices and compromises

Sure, all flight time should be compensated apart from the time itself.

...and therein lies the complexity that does not always get addressed. if the afore mentioned gardener or hairdresser wants to go off on their own and retain currency, build their time, or gain experience, they do not need to rent a tree or a head of hair from the local "U-Rent-It" for $200.00+ per hour (referring to complex/hi-perf time).

for some, the monetary value of the flight time in and of itself is compensation enough. at least until they reach whatever goal they have set for themselves to be "marketable".

 

[TXCAP4228]

Re: Non-Aviation P-F-T

bobbysamd, I had a feeling I'd see a post from you about this. I think you may have program that scans this board looking for the letters PFT.

That's inaccurate in several ways. Yes, doctors, lawyers and professors paid for their schooling, but not for their training. Each of these professionals graduated with credentials, e.g. M.D., J.D., Ph.D., Ed.D., that can be marketed anywhere within their respective fields. If you pay for training, you have (1) remitted money to a a company as a condition of employment and (2) the training that you have received is esoteric to that specific company.

I don't want to get into the PFT thing again but at some point the line between "graduating with credentials" and "PFT" gets really blurry. If it makes you feel better, I think PFT sucks but there is some of it out there in the world outside of aviation.... its just a question of degrees. More on this below....

Perhaps some of these folks are paying their dues while they learn the ropes, but paying dues and paying for training ain't the same.

I acknowledge that my comparison is a big stretch. Partly I was trying to twist Skaz's tail a little bit. But in a sense what I said is true. Even about the pro bono work. The firm may pay an attorney a salary, but the firm itself makes no revenue from that case. From that perspective, the work is being done for free. Anyway, the same is true for Doctors and College Professors. I realize that's a stretch but my point was to disagree with the absolutism that Sakz was representing - and nothing more.

I won't get into a more detailed discussion with you but I assure you I undertsand these terms very well.

Bottom line, I made this post to question Skaz's absolutist view and to try and frame it from another perspective.

 

[AA717driver]

This reminds me of the punch line from a favorite joke:

"Madam, we've already established what you are. Now we are just haggling over the price."

If you're from a civilian background and haven't done free flying that you should have gotten paid for...you just weren't trying! TC

 

[bobbysamd]

Pro bono v. Aviation P-F-T

Originally posted by TXCAP4228 Even about the pro bono work. The firm may pay an attorney a salary, but the firm itself makes no revenue from that case. From that perspective, the work is being done for free.

But the difference is that pro bono legal work is done as a public service. The same would be true for doctors.

No, I don't have anything like P-F-T ThreadSniffer 1.0 on my machine. Nor was I intending to incite a P-F-T discussion (note the use of the word "incite"). On the other hand, I've never met a P-F-T discussion I didn't like.

I do hope that Earl is getting some food for thought on this issue. With the exception of P-F-T, pilot whoredom is not always a black-and-white issue but is seen frequently in shades of grey.

 

[wingnutt]

Re: Pro bono v. Aviation P-F-T

...pilot whoredom...

lol! touche

 

[bobbysamd]

PFT is a situation in which an operator requires newhires, regardless of previous qualifications to pay for their initial training. PFT is far worse than a lineman picking up a bit of SE time . . . .

Excellent comments and analysis.

 

[bart]

You guys can have it. I have decided that there are too many of you willing to work for nothing. It is not worth it when I can do something else working half as hard for four times the money. I will encourage everyone I meet in my new kline of work to leave and become a pilot (so as to decrease wage competition in my new field. You guys give em hell.

 

[low-n-slow]

I believe the problem with aviation and trying to earn a decent wage is that way too many people KNOW that there are many who will work for absolutely nothing and they in turn take advantage of it.
I worked for a guy one time that had a favorite saying 'Pilots are a dime a dozen' and would hire pilots willing to work for nothing...two of these types of pilots put this knucklehead out of business after tearing up every airplane he owned. I was grateful I had quit him six months prior.
Even though I am a lowely cropduster, Earl this exploitation happens anywhere an airplane is involved. Something about airplanes and earning a living makes some owners think they they are 'above' paying out monies EARNED by somebody doing a job for them.
It happens, if it were not YOU doing this flying for free it would be some other low time pilot building hours and believe me whenever I say that more than one operator will remind you of the fact about the very same time you start asking questions about being paid.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

I thought the word "pilot" was synonymous with the word "whore"