am I a pilot whore?

[Draginass]

Let me get this straight. The company doesn't think you're experienced enough to get paid, but they think you're experienced enough to fly their expensive airplane around for their profit?

I wonder what would happen if due to their lousy maintenance, the airplane crashed and you were severely injured or someone on the ground was? Would their insurance cover you? Are you a formal employee of the company? There's lot of legal type questions here that I hope you've thought of. To me, these guys smell like shysters. You need to carefully consider your legal status in this company.

That dog don't hunt, son.

 

[Earl Williams]

"Let me get this straight. The company doesn't think you're experienced enough to get paid, but they think you're experienced enough to fly their expensive airplane around for their profit?"

- Seems like that to me. But just one clarification...these are all part 91 flights (not part 135) and, I don't believe, are considered "for profit" by the company. As this company is a service center as well , the flights are mainly deliveries of customer A/C that have been returned from maintenence, as well as ferrying customer's around who've brought their planes in for service.

As an employee, I know I'm covered under their insurance policy (when I rent their planes out for personal reasons) yet, not being "on the clock" when I fly for company purposes, I'm not sure if that coverage still applies. I need to get an answer to that.

 

[bobbysamd]

Whoredom? Perhaps not

I agree with your point about the unfairness of you flying for this company for free while its regular charter pilots are paid for the same work.

I concur with your concerns about insurance. Moreover, this company might be risking federal wage and hour law problems by not paying you. As Draginass noted, if, G-d forbid, if something happened to you while flying their airplanes for free you might have problems recovering from the company.

Having said all that, yes, you are walking a very fine line. I, too, was older when I started in professional aviation. I was astounded at some of the practices, especially you-know-what. I learned over the years before, during and after aviation that one should insist in being paid properly in any job. Not insisting on proper pay is license for abuse because in my $0.02 opinion, consciously or unconsciously, you will be viewed as someone who can be taken advantage of because you're willing to work for less money than others. Your time is still valuable and is worthy of compensation. So is the flight time and potential opportunity.

Perhaps the place might be willing to pay your for your down time. If the place is not willing to treat you right, don't put up with it for any longer than you have to.

Hope that helps a little.

PS-I reread Earl's original post. I must have missed where he said he was hired by the company for line service when I wrote this post this morning. Accordingly, I want to amend my comments.

The company is bonusing you by giving you flight time. Many a pilot has built experience and climbed the ladder through such activities. Many a pilot has parlayed such opportunities into better things, such as eventually hiring on as a line pilot after building enough time. Thus, I stand by my comments above about the opportunity with which you have been presented. Moreover, when you ferry the airplanes to other airports and people see you you have opportunities to make contacts with like companies.

I am sure you are being paid hourly for line service. Is flying airplanes taking away from your normal duties and wages? Maybe the company can make that up to you some way. Just the same, you are being presented with an opportunity that goes beyond building time. Now, having said that, try not to be taken advantage of too much. Everyone is taken advantage of to some extent when they start careers and sometimes thereafter.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[Draginass]

I think you can safely assume that the company is not delivering an airplane for free to the customer. He's paying for it somewhere.

 

[Joseph II]

All about business.

When I started this gig, I thought a Commercial Certificate was worth something. What gave me the big shock was when I took a part time job as a skydiving pilot. I asked, "How much do I get paid?" The owner said, "the 182 time is your payment.”

That was acceptable to me. I had a full time job and few on the weekends. At times I would be at the airport for 4 hours, and other times I would be there 10. I logged a whopping 25 hours of 182 time that fall. I didn’t mind it one bit because when I wasn’t flying, I was studying about the 182 and talking to skydivers about flying and skydiving. I saw nervous first time jumpers watch the videos, get the brief jump class, and go tandem. The families would all be out cheering and when I got back on the ground, that skydiver was thrilled. Sure I didn’t get paid but when a father comes up to you and said “nice landing, thanks for taking my son up!” it made it all worth it. When the Jump Master said, “I like how you hold course, altitude and speed for our jump run, you do a good job!” It makes it all worth it.

I now work for a company that pretty much has a monopoly on the aviation charting business. I know pilots who have 5,000 hours flying charter in twins, 2,000 hour commuter airline captains, and 2,000 hour Leer FO’s. They are all working at my company because they couldn’t afford to stay in the game. Some are happy to be out (actually most are) but some wish they could fly again but can’t afford it.

So, do I think you are abusing free flight time? No. The reason being is like a previous poster said, compensation does not always mean money. If you feel you are being compensated fairly, then go for it! If you don’t feel like you are being compensated fairly, then let the next guy take your spot!

One final thought… Why don’t we stop and consider this situation from the business owner’s vantage. One qualified pilot is willing to do the job for $20/hour while another will do the same job for $0/hour. You are out to make a profit so would you rather pay someone $20 when you can get that same service for free? Heck no! I know of a cargo company that has the sic PAY the company to ride in their plane. Talk about a great deal for the business owner! Finally, do you really think they care about your career? NOT AT ALL! They are looking out for themselves. I think we as pilots should try to understand this concept and once we do, we’ll be better off.

 

[iaflyer]

Tough decision

Let me make sure I have my facts right - you were hired to work line service at this company. After you got your commerical certificate, the company started letting you reposition customer's aircraft before and after maintenance.

It doesn't sound like a true job, employed as a pilot. You're employed as a line guy, with "benefits" of flying an airplane for free (but not getting paid either). It seems you are free to turn down a flight, or leave that company and seek employment as a pilot elsewhere. The problem (and I've been there, believe me) is with under 300 hours, and no CFI, there aren't many jobs.

While it's true you're not getting paid to fly, the flight time is valuable to you. I would say that as long as the flight time is valuable to you, and there isn't a chance they will pay you - continue doing it. Eventually they will either move you into the flight department (probably not any time soon though) or you'll be able to get a pilot job elsewhere.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned is that there might be good connections made by doing what you are doing. The Chief Pilot or DO is most likely connected in the aviation world where you live. By doing a good job delivering aircraft, you might get the nod for a job elsewhere that you wouldn't otherwise be considered for.

Aviation is full of tough decisions - just wait until there is pressure to complete a flight, maintenance issues to decide, or career decisions to make. In the end, you are the one who has to live with the decision - although you'll discover plenty of other people will second-guess you.

iaflyer

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I gotta go with iaflyer here.

You are a line guy. That is your job. You are not employed as a pilot. But your company allows you to fly airplanes and not have to pay for it. That is a bonus for you.

This company is also not REQUIRING you to do the flying is it? Are they counting on your free services to move airplanes?

This company really is doing you a favor. If they start counting on you to do more and more of the flying--then you need to worry about getting paid. But while it's just a fringe benefit of working the line--you aren't hurting anybody. (it's not like they would hire another pilot if you stopped flying would they?)

Actually, I'd make sure you don't screw them over this issue. Right now, they are investing in you (for an admittedly low wage). But trust me, they are just trying to help out a low time pilot get a leg up, and possibly be able to hire them into a real pilot position sometime in the future.

Dan

 

[Skaz]

this is bull, Earl is working as a professional pilot and doing it for free. that means that he is taking the job one of us is working hard for.
I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free. You got a money tree in the back yard, Earl? If so please do mail me some seedpods, I have to work for a living.
We had a word, in the SADF, for someone that does to the rest of us that Earl is doing...:"maatjie naaier" loosely translated it means :" buddy f - u - c- k - e - r "

 

[TXCAP4228]

this is bull, Earl is working as a professional pilot and doing it for free. that means that he is taking the job one of us is working hard for.
I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free. You got a money tree in the back yard, Earl? If so please do mail me some seedpods, I have to work for a living.
We had a word, in the SADF, for someone that does to the rest of us that Earl is doing...:"maatjie naaier" loosely translated it means :" buddy f - u - c- k - e - r "

Ok Skaz, I'll give you a couple of things to think about:

1) In order for this to be true, you would have to be willing to do the same work and his company would have to be willing to pay you.
2) You should also have to explain why some arbitrary wage should be set that the market does not support.

Maybe its easy for you to cuss at Earl to make yourself feel better, but I won't ask you to justify that. Instead, I'll ask you why exactly Earl owes it to you to insist on being paid. His position allows him to build time and if he's willing to do that then more power to him. The standard you set for right and wrong in your post was basedon not F&CKING you buddy. If you say he's wrong and must insist on being paid, chances are he'll lose the chance to do any of that flying at all. If that happens, then the position you're taking would actually harm him. So who is F&CKING whom?

Sounds to me like you don't give a sh!t about him but you're disguising it by saying you're interest is the benefit of all pilots.

Next time try less cussing and better arguments.

 

[Skaz]

TXCAP4228 your arguments are flawed from the outset. Show me an airline captain thats willing to work for free....do you work for free? I dont, I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am today and I'm proud of my achievements and I expect to be compensated, as a professional in a professional industry, for my services rendered. We are of a similar standard to that of doctors, lawyers, professors etc, they dont work for free do they?

I am willing to do and HAVE DONE the kind of work Earl speaks of. Guess what....I got paid for it too. In my company we had two blokes rocke up who arranged with CEO that they would fly on freight runs as copilots for free. This resulted in freelance pilots getting the boot and sitting without jobs, not getting paid and still having to feed their families and clothe their children.
This is bullsh*t. Even somebody as ignorant or naive as you cant argue with that. We made sure they felt VERY unwelcome and got the hell outta the company.
If the company Earl is flying for free for is a charity or NGO, then by all means fly for free. The Red Cross in South Africa has a PC12 that airline guys flies for free as a humanitarian service. Go fly BN2's or C182 for missionary outfits. CZheck climbto350, theres jobs on there.
If the company he flies for is a profit earning, capitalist economy based bussiness, then he should get paid for the work he does. Hes willingness to work for free degrades the position of ALL pilots in the industry, nevermind which company in what country you fly for. We all suffer because of it.
I am not cussing Earl to make myself feel better about anything, I dont have to, in fact I'm trying to express to him that what he is doing, is selling HIMSELF and the rest of US short.
Earl you said yourself :"I don't want to set any more of a precedence for dragging down the payscale for pilots"....then WHY are you working for free!?! you are draggin down YOUR OWN payscale...they dont want to pay you....go look somewhere else where you are respected as a professional, an employee a person and get paid accordingly!
another qoute:" would assume that a CFI wouldn't be willing to work for free simply becuase they're not having to pay for their flight time." they sure dont....not in Afrika and for d*mn sure not in the States. they train us....what does that tell you?
If you go to the Dentist, does he charge you for services rendered? does the hairdresser, does the supermarket?Of course they do, Communism is dead...supply and demand, free market economics and capitalism is alive and well.Even if the company you worked for just feeds you and lets you sleep under the stairs in the hanger, thats marginal, but ok, flying for free is not.

Earl, I dont know you, nor do I know what road you have had to travel to get where you are today, but if you were paid in your previous job, why not in this one? The company you are working for got it good....they have somebody thats willing to work hard to get somewhere, and they dont have to pay him!free labour, fantastic....for them, not you. Are you going to settle flying and working hard for nothing all your career as a pilot? I wouldnt think so. You might be inexperienced in aviation and the politics involved, as you can see there are plenty , but you are now by your actions and willingness to work for free, not only depriving yourself of an income, but also the next guy who wants to earn a living as a pilot, provide for he's family and have a rewarding and fullfilling career as a pilot.

If not for airmanship,professional ethics, plain common sense and logic, then for your own sense of selfworth and pride.......dont accept to work for nothing.

 

[enigma]

I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free.

Skaz, when you say PFT are you talking about buying training, or are you talking about buying a job? PFT is a situation in which an operator requires newhires, regardless of previous qualifications to pay for their initial training. PFT is far worse than a lineman picking up a bit of SE time. PFT is buying a job. When an operator makes hiring decisions based upon an applicants checkbook, that's PFT. If you don't like "backstabbers" working for free, then surely you must be incensed about a pilot backstabbing us all when he agrees to buy a job. The guy flying for free affects us all in only a very small way, the PFT'r directly affects every potential newhire at his PFT company.

The sad thing is, the company would pay for the initial training itself, were it not for misguided pilots buying the job.

I remember when a current, qualified E120 pilot couldn't get a job at a PFT carrier without paying $12K for his "training". I submit that the idiots who were paying for that initial training screwed the other pilots much harder than the lineman who picks up a few hours in a mooney.

8N

 

[Timebuilder]

In the 60's and 70's when Cessna, Beech and Piper were putting out airplanes by the thousands, someone had to move them from the factories to the sales/training outlets. I would wager that many of the current senior airline captains used to build time ferrying these new 150's, 172's, 140's, etc etc etc.....and they never got a penny of cash for doing it. But, they got that valuable flight time, which helped them get the jobs they are now paid VERY well to do.

Using the logic of this thread, we should offer to let novice gardners cut out grass for free, so they can later become expert landscapers.

Car dealerships should use inexperienced 16 year olds to deliver new cars, because they will enjoy the experience of driving the cars for free.

We can come up with an number of absurd analogies to illustrate this, I'm certain. Why is is different when it comes to aviation?

Because WE LET IT BE SO.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Skaz....

TXCAP4228 your arguments are flawed from the outset. Show me an airline captain thats willing to work for free....do you work for free? I dont, I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am today and I'm proud of my achievements and I expect to be compensated, as a professional in a professional industry, for my services rendered. We are of a similar standard to that of doctors, lawyers, professors etc, they dont work for free do they?

1) Earl is not an airline captain. In his words he's a newly minted commercial pilot. With his hours and experience he can't get a paying flight job anywhere. However, if his company let's him reposition airplanes on .5 hour flights every once and a while, why shouldn't he do that?
2) He is NOT taking anyone's job. You would not do this job for what the company would be willing to pay you. This is exactly why I call your argument disingenuous.
3) The only way Earl can build time is either to pay for it or grab maintenance or repositioning flights like he's doing. I say there's nothing wrong with that.
4) On the other hand, I'd say that if he followed your insistence that he not do the work for free he might actually lose the chance to do this flying, which is a real harm to him. So I ask you Skaz, who is looking out for whom?
5) Doctors, Lawyers and Professors have ALL worked for free when they were in training. Here's another thought, just to twist your tailfeathers a little more, Doctors, Lawyers and Professors ALL PAID FOR THEIR TRAINING. You may have also heard of pro bono work.....

If you go to the Dentist, does he charge you for services rendered? does the hairdresser, does the supermarket?Of course they do, Communism is dead...supply and demand, free market economics and capitalism is alive and well.Even if the company you worked for just feeds you and lets you sleep under the stairs in the hanger, thats marginal, but ok, flying for free is not.

The Dentists went through an internship. When I was in college there was a hairdressing school where I went to get haircuts for free.

Dude, don't even begin to try to explain to me how a free market works. You're on thin ice here. The market value of the work Earl is doing is not supportable beyond simply allowing him a chance to log time. You can be righteously indignant all you want but that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of pilots WOULD do that for free and that if the company did have to pay Earl for repositioning it might well change the structure of the business and then no one would be able to make these flights.

I told Earl not to cheat himself and not to get cheated. At some point, when he has more time, skill, and more to offer a potential employer, I fully expect him to ask for payment in the form of wages. But the upshot is that in his current situation there's nothing wrong with taking these flights for free if he is willing to.

Skaz, I see your point and don't necessarily disagree that he should be compensated. But my point is that his compensation does not have to be a monetary wage. The flight time he gets to log is worth a lot of cash that he won't have to spend. If that works for him, why not?

 

[wingnutt]

...especially if he talks to them and gets some sort of agreement to the effect that when he does acquire their minimuns, he is allowed on-line as a paid pilot. more often than not, the guys that do this sort of thing are merely increasing their "stock" in that company, so that when the time comes, they are allowed in.

on the other hand...if there is no more than a snowballs chance in he11 of him getting online, then it may be a waste of time, and worth it for him to investigate other avenues

P.S. interesting thread

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Wingnutt has an excellent idea. I would certainly think about getting an agreement like that. It will show the company that he is not just in it for the free flight time, and it will give Earl a bit of "job security" if you will. Both parties can come out ahead that way.

Dan