am I a pilot whore?

[Earl Williams]

I'm beginning to question my sanity on a new role that has been offered to me, and was curious what everyone's thoughts were on the subject.

After deciding to abandon my corporate job of nine years in hopes of making a career-change into aviation, I decided to work the line at a charter company in order to help finance my ratings. After recently earning my Commercial certificate, this company has allowed for me to help out on flights, such as deliveries, customer relocations, etc. There's only one caveat...I'm not getting paid. Basically, the company feels it's doing a low-timer such as myself a favor by allowing me to build time in their nice H/P Mooney's, as well as getting established in their flight department (feeling it could eventually develop into "bigger, better things"). In short, it's a barter deal...I don't pay for the time, but I'm not getting paid either.

Coming from a previous career in which I would charge my client a reasonable, yet hefty, rate for consulting, I guess I'm just used to being compensated for services rendered. As I've gotten deeper into aviation, I've found that some of these "normal" rules of business conduct may not apply. We all know that most CFI's aren't compensated even CLOSE to adequately, or what one would expect for their levels of expertise and training. Yet I also hear of pilots willing to ride along for free, or work for minimal scraps, in order to gain valuable time. I'm almost coming to the conclusion that it's not uncommon to "barter" one's time for flight hours (at least for low-timer's such as myself).

I'm willing to pay my dues to the fullest extent in order to make my dream of flying for a living a reality. Yet I don't want to do so in a way that not only sacrifices my principles, but the principles of this industry. In other words, I don't want to set any more of a precedence for dragging down the payscale for pilots. In leiu of the way the industry is right now, I realize the financial sacrifices that will need to be made in order to build quality time. However, I want to do so only if it's ethical, or at least a "traditional" route (whatever that means!).

So, my question is: as a newly-minted commercial pilot, should I expect to get paid (even a nominal amount) for services such as what I'm performing for my company? I've been told that the valuable complex/HP time that I'm receiving is, to an extent, "pay" due to the fact that I'M not having to pay for this time myself. However, this concept makes little sense when I compare it to, for example, flight instructing. I would assume that a CFI wouldn't be willing to work for free simply becuase they're not having to pay for their flight time. I consider my case to be similiar...at least in theory. I seriously doubt that my landlord would allow me to use this complex/HP time in my logbook as barter for my monthly rent!

My apologies for all the rambling...I'm just having trouble understanding whether this is "right". My gut tells me it's not, but I also don't want to walk away from what could (at least develop) into valuble experience.

...any thoughts????

-Earl

 

[Otto_Pilot]

Go with your gut.

Your training and experience have value. Its up to you to attach a dollar to that value.

 

[enigma]

Earl, you said, "this company has allowed for me to help out on flights, such as deliveries, customer relocations" From that I conclude that you are performing duties as a delivery pilot. If you are the PIC, then I would suggest that you charge some nominal fee for your services. If you are just being allowed to ride along and "help out" then you are not getting anything worth having.

While I would like to see you get paid something for your time, I will conceed that it is possible to consider it a trade out. I imagine that high performance time is worth more per hour than is charter pilot services.

In my opinion, as long as you are not taking a job away from a working pilot, then go for it. If your actions are depriving another more qualified pilot of a job, then you must consider refusing to fly for free.

regards,
8N

 

[sauce]

Probably, welcome to the group

You will find a lot of pilots that wants "everyone else" to hold a standard, but if you look into their background, you will find that MOST(not all) pilots have bummed rides and worked for almost nothing.

Cover your own butt and don't worry about the winners on the message boards. Most pilots are pretty cool and fair, but a lot are back stabbing little bit!hes, who will do anything to advance up.

My advice (free) is to evaluate each opportunity and if it is safe and worth it to you, go for it. You are not going to hurt this industry, there has been, and always will be, someone waiting to do it for free! This will not change!

 

[Timebuilder]

Cover your own butt and don't worry about the winners on the message boards. Most pilots are pretty cool and fair, but a lot are back stabbing little bit!hes, who will do anything to advance up.

Was that "winners" or "whiners"? I'm not sure what you meant.

At any rate, Earl, this is a tough call.

Once, I was asked by the secretary at my flight school to go and pick up a student after his airplane crapped out at another airport while he was on a cross country. Later, my boss told me that I was expected to do this for free, since no one was paying for the aircraft time. I complained, and I was not abused again in that way. Later, we had another heated discussion about being paid as a professional when asked to do the work of a professional. Remember, these guys are used to taking advantage of far younger and less experienced people, not folks like you and I who have a clue. This has built up a comfort zone of expectations for them.

There are a great many slimeballs in aviation, and it's up to you whether or not you are going to further their interests while you further your own. Are you fully insured and protected from any unreasonable liability if you have an accident, or will the company's insurance pay the claim and then come after YOU?

One outlook is the concept that logging time in a new Mooney would cost a bunch, far different from my being asked to fly for an hour and a half in a 172RG for free. You could call this compensation, for sure. Just make sure you are protected financially if you are not "on the clock", and this duty is spelled out and clear as a part of your job, paid or not.

If this is only on occaision, it probably isn't a big deal, particularly if it leads to a better position. Just make sure you are PROTECTED.

 

[wil]

Earl- you must be compensated for your services. Plain and simple! I hope you can get a fair wage for your services!

 

[Timebuilder]

The unfortunate fact is this: either Earl agrees to do this, or another eager person will be willing to do it instead.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Free Market

The unfortunate fact is this: either Earl agrees to do this, or another eager person will be willing to do it instead.

My post is not intended as flamebait, only food for thought.

It is a fundamental principal of a free market that a wage should be based on what value a particular skill or capability has in the the marketplace. Pilots don't like to hear this much, but there are a THOUSANDS of qualified pilots out there willing to work for little or nothing in order to build the time they need to advance their careers.

This is the free market at work.

If there are pilots willing to work for minimum wage to fly a Mooney then that's what the market will bear. If there are pilots willing to work for less or for no monetary wage, then this is also the free market at work.

No transaction ever occurs in a free market without the consent of both parties. Also, compensation does not have to come in the form of a monetary wage or salary. In your case, you can think of the opportunity to log flight time as a form of compensation so you would still not be working for free.

If there are folks on this board that think that because they operate a complicated machine they're entitled to be exempt from the free market I would have to ask why. I have asked this question many times and can never get a good answer.


The only advice I can give you is to reiterate that no transaction (or employment) evers occurs without mutual consent. If you don't think you're being paid at an appropriate level then you always have the option to walk away. Don't cheat yourself and don't get cheated, but don't buy into the dogma that somehow pilots are special from every other job in the known universe and are somehow entitled to some minimum arbitrary level of payment.

But you definitely don't owe it to your "pilot brothers" to insist on some kind of payment just to satisfy everybody else out there who doesn't have the same chance to build time that you have.

Flame away.

 

[Timebuilder]

You're right.

In a purely free market, there would be no collective bargaining, sexual harassment suits, or alphabet government agencies. We never really have a truly free market, due to the activities of Man and his government.

In the case of pilots, if enough pilots agree to refuse to work for no wages or low wages, then wages and conditions would rise. This is very unlikely to happen, since people, particularly younger people with precious little life experience, are very unlikely to act on anyone's behalf except their own. PFT is a good example of this, as is the incredibly low pay that we accept for flight instruction.

This leaves the only marginally effective course, that of collective bargaining. It is efficient to a point, as long as the market allows for the conditions of the contract. We are now seeing what happens when the market can no longer support the costs associated with the contract.

The market is, however, self-correcting. As the business, any business, becomes unattractive to enough people, wages will be forced to rise to the point of equilibrium. Aviation is no different. As word spreads of the furloughs, the poor working conditions, the loss of the pot of gold at the end of the major airline rainbow, only the most stalwart will be left to compete for the remaining jobs.

And the market will begin to attract workers, slowly depressing wages and begining the cycle yet again .

 

[TurboS7]

A workmen is worthy of his hire. If the charter company doesn't want to pay you they are cheap, cheap, cheap. More than likely they are also being cheap on maint. and everything else. They are using and abusing you. I had guys work for me when I had a Part 135, they drove vans, cleaned the hangar, and they were free to ride on the flights -on their own time. I paid them for all the other duties and as a company employee they had the seat open to them if they wanted it. As for time in a complex airplane that doesn't hold water. If you rented the airplane you could go with it where you wished and get up when you wanted to. I sounds like to me if you are flying for any compensation for the company or if the company is recieving any compensation(not on a Part 135) you are totally illegal. People may not like PFT but running an illegal charter operation is 10 times worse.

 

[vclean]

Whores get paid for their services. You're a slut

 

[TWA Dude]

Earl:

I like Enigma's answer the best. Of course it's because it describes exactly what I did. I was employed as a CFI at a company that also flew charters. Once in a while a part or an employee needed to be transported between our FBO's and I "volunteered" to be the ferry pilot. I got a few more needed hours and they got the wear-and-tear on the plane. No harm nor foul for anyone. When a flight was generating revenue I got paid.

 

[Earl Williams]

true...I would be a slut!

I expected to find differing opinions on this, based on the few pilots I've talked to about it. I've been given the advice that a low-timer like myself should feel fortunate to be able to fly these types of aircraft around (paid or not). But I also seem to sense from other pilots around the company that I'm just a peon willing to slave myself for logbook time.

I guess what kind of irks me is that if I'm unable to do a flight on a particular day, the company just calls in one of the charter pilots, and asks he or she to do it. However, these folks are doing the trip under their base salary. Basically, if I'm not available to fly the trip for free, they have to resort to using a paid employee. I guess that's understandable.

Typically, these flights are somewhat short-hops...maybe in the average of 0.5 per leg. However, there's normally a lot of down time waiting for so-and-so to show up, or unexpected maintenence delays. So, an hour in the logbook can easily turn into a 5-6 hour day. Since I'm not allowed to fly these trips on my line shift, I obviously don't receive a dime.

I never got into aviation for the money, or glamour, or anything of a superficial sense. I could have stayed in the corporate world if I did desire those things. By no means am I implying that money isn't important, but I guess I just had some sort of false expectation that the "privelege" of having a Commercial certificate would be just that...a means of being compensated for my flight time.

Timebuilder is totally right when saying that if I don't do this, there are PLENTY of others waiting in line to do so. I agree on the free market concept, but am troubled by how we ever got ourselves into a position in aviation whereby we're questioning whether we should get paid for our services? I just don't want to feel like I'm contributing to the answer to that question.

-Earl

 

[Timebuilder]

I agree on the free market concept, but am troubled by how we ever got ourselves into a position in aviation whereby we're questioning whether we should get paid for our services?

I think it is because we, that is I and a lot of other people I know, viewed this business as a mountain, and we thought that the major airline job was the "top" of that mountain. We liked the idea of the money and presige of being at the top of the mountain. We were willing to make any number of smaller "sacrifices" to acheive our goal, and failed to place much value on the steps we took along the way.

Now, it seems that it isn't a mountain as much as it is a plateau, and the important aspect is the journey, not the destination. Since things are changing so much, there may be a greater appreciation for what we have, rather than where we are going.

 

[wingnutt]

Welcome Earl, and unfortunatley no-one can really answer this question except you. There will be a plethora of opinions, but until some of these guys are in the same position you are, take it with a grain of salt. I am not shunning the practice, but in the same breath, nor am I condoning.

Ive known more than one guy (or gal for that matter) that flew 135 ops from 500-1200 for absolutley no pay what-so-ever. The route they took was similar to yours in that it was complex/hi-perf single engine time in a 135 op...good time to have to be sure. And, if they were unable to accomplish their flight (for whatever reason) sure enough, a 1200+ hour PAID pilot took the seat in those circumstances.

Why did they do it? One of them was just not cut out for instructing, and couldnt leave their hometown. The oppurtunity to fly VFR unpaid presented itself, with the promise of all twin time from 1200 until they decided to leave the company. The company in question does not make a point to "hire" VFR guys, but theres always one or two on their duty roster for whatever reason.

Does any of this change my opinion of the pilots in question? ...nah. They are both good people and are now flying jetA aircraft elsewhere. Although i am all for the propagation of the species (as it were), we dont live in a perfect world.

Good luck in your quest

 

[Draginass]

Let me get this straight. The company doesn't think you're experienced enough to get paid, but they think you're experienced enough to fly their expensive airplane around for their profit?

I wonder what would happen if due to their lousy maintenance, the airplane crashed and you were severely injured or someone on the ground was? Would their insurance cover you? Are you a formal employee of the company? There's lot of legal type questions here that I hope you've thought of. To me, these guys smell like shysters. You need to carefully consider your legal status in this company.

That dog don't hunt, son.

 

[Earl Williams]

"Let me get this straight. The company doesn't think you're experienced enough to get paid, but they think you're experienced enough to fly their expensive airplane around for their profit?"

- Seems like that to me. But just one clarification...these are all part 91 flights (not part 135) and, I don't believe, are considered "for profit" by the company. As this company is a service center as well , the flights are mainly deliveries of customer A/C that have been returned from maintenence, as well as ferrying customer's around who've brought their planes in for service.

As an employee, I know I'm covered under their insurance policy (when I rent their planes out for personal reasons) yet, not being "on the clock" when I fly for company purposes, I'm not sure if that coverage still applies. I need to get an answer to that.

 

[bobbysamd]

Whoredom? Perhaps not

I agree with your point about the unfairness of you flying for this company for free while its regular charter pilots are paid for the same work.

I concur with your concerns about insurance. Moreover, this company might be risking federal wage and hour law problems by not paying you. As Draginass noted, if, G-d forbid, if something happened to you while flying their airplanes for free you might have problems recovering from the company.

Having said all that, yes, you are walking a very fine line. I, too, was older when I started in professional aviation. I was astounded at some of the practices, especially you-know-what. I learned over the years before, during and after aviation that one should insist in being paid properly in any job. Not insisting on proper pay is license for abuse because in my $0.02 opinion, consciously or unconsciously, you will be viewed as someone who can be taken advantage of because you're willing to work for less money than others. Your time is still valuable and is worthy of compensation. So is the flight time and potential opportunity.

Perhaps the place might be willing to pay your for your down time. If the place is not willing to treat you right, don't put up with it for any longer than you have to.

Hope that helps a little.

PS-I reread Earl's original post. I must have missed where he said he was hired by the company for line service when I wrote this post this morning. Accordingly, I want to amend my comments.

The company is bonusing you by giving you flight time. Many a pilot has built experience and climbed the ladder through such activities. Many a pilot has parlayed such opportunities into better things, such as eventually hiring on as a line pilot after building enough time. Thus, I stand by my comments above about the opportunity with which you have been presented. Moreover, when you ferry the airplanes to other airports and people see you you have opportunities to make contacts with like companies.

I am sure you are being paid hourly for line service. Is flying airplanes taking away from your normal duties and wages? Maybe the company can make that up to you some way. Just the same, you are being presented with an opportunity that goes beyond building time. Now, having said that, try not to be taken advantage of too much. Everyone is taken advantage of to some extent when they start careers and sometimes thereafter.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[Draginass]

I think you can safely assume that the company is not delivering an airplane for free to the customer. He's paying for it somewhere.

 

[Joseph II]

All about business.

When I started this gig, I thought a Commercial Certificate was worth something. What gave me the big shock was when I took a part time job as a skydiving pilot. I asked, "How much do I get paid?" The owner said, "the 182 time is your payment.”

That was acceptable to me. I had a full time job and few on the weekends. At times I would be at the airport for 4 hours, and other times I would be there 10. I logged a whopping 25 hours of 182 time that fall. I didn’t mind it one bit because when I wasn’t flying, I was studying about the 182 and talking to skydivers about flying and skydiving. I saw nervous first time jumpers watch the videos, get the brief jump class, and go tandem. The families would all be out cheering and when I got back on the ground, that skydiver was thrilled. Sure I didn’t get paid but when a father comes up to you and said “nice landing, thanks for taking my son up!” it made it all worth it. When the Jump Master said, “I like how you hold course, altitude and speed for our jump run, you do a good job!” It makes it all worth it.

I now work for a company that pretty much has a monopoly on the aviation charting business. I know pilots who have 5,000 hours flying charter in twins, 2,000 hour commuter airline captains, and 2,000 hour Leer FO’s. They are all working at my company because they couldn’t afford to stay in the game. Some are happy to be out (actually most are) but some wish they could fly again but can’t afford it.

So, do I think you are abusing free flight time? No. The reason being is like a previous poster said, compensation does not always mean money. If you feel you are being compensated fairly, then go for it! If you don’t feel like you are being compensated fairly, then let the next guy take your spot!

One final thought… Why don’t we stop and consider this situation from the business owner’s vantage. One qualified pilot is willing to do the job for $20/hour while another will do the same job for $0/hour. You are out to make a profit so would you rather pay someone $20 when you can get that same service for free? Heck no! I know of a cargo company that has the sic PAY the company to ride in their plane. Talk about a great deal for the business owner! Finally, do you really think they care about your career? NOT AT ALL! They are looking out for themselves. I think we as pilots should try to understand this concept and once we do, we’ll be better off.

 

[iaflyer]

Tough decision

Let me make sure I have my facts right - you were hired to work line service at this company. After you got your commerical certificate, the company started letting you reposition customer's aircraft before and after maintenance.

It doesn't sound like a true job, employed as a pilot. You're employed as a line guy, with "benefits" of flying an airplane for free (but not getting paid either). It seems you are free to turn down a flight, or leave that company and seek employment as a pilot elsewhere. The problem (and I've been there, believe me) is with under 300 hours, and no CFI, there aren't many jobs.

While it's true you're not getting paid to fly, the flight time is valuable to you. I would say that as long as the flight time is valuable to you, and there isn't a chance they will pay you - continue doing it. Eventually they will either move you into the flight department (probably not any time soon though) or you'll be able to get a pilot job elsewhere.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned is that there might be good connections made by doing what you are doing. The Chief Pilot or DO is most likely connected in the aviation world where you live. By doing a good job delivering aircraft, you might get the nod for a job elsewhere that you wouldn't otherwise be considered for.

Aviation is full of tough decisions - just wait until there is pressure to complete a flight, maintenance issues to decide, or career decisions to make. In the end, you are the one who has to live with the decision - although you'll discover plenty of other people will second-guess you.

iaflyer

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

I gotta go with iaflyer here.

You are a line guy. That is your job. You are not employed as a pilot. But your company allows you to fly airplanes and not have to pay for it. That is a bonus for you.

This company is also not REQUIRING you to do the flying is it? Are they counting on your free services to move airplanes?

This company really is doing you a favor. If they start counting on you to do more and more of the flying--then you need to worry about getting paid. But while it's just a fringe benefit of working the line--you aren't hurting anybody. (it's not like they would hire another pilot if you stopped flying would they?)

Actually, I'd make sure you don't screw them over this issue. Right now, they are investing in you (for an admittedly low wage). But trust me, they are just trying to help out a low time pilot get a leg up, and possibly be able to hire them into a real pilot position sometime in the future.

Dan

 

[Skaz]

this is bull, Earl is working as a professional pilot and doing it for free. that means that he is taking the job one of us is working hard for.
I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free. You got a money tree in the back yard, Earl? If so please do mail me some seedpods, I have to work for a living.
We had a word, in the SADF, for someone that does to the rest of us that Earl is doing...:"maatjie naaier" loosely translated it means :" buddy f - u - c- k - e - r "

 

[TXCAP4228]

this is bull, Earl is working as a professional pilot and doing it for free. that means that he is taking the job one of us is working hard for.
I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free. You got a money tree in the back yard, Earl? If so please do mail me some seedpods, I have to work for a living.
We had a word, in the SADF, for someone that does to the rest of us that Earl is doing...:"maatjie naaier" loosely translated it means :" buddy f - u - c- k - e - r "

Ok Skaz, I'll give you a couple of things to think about:

1) In order for this to be true, you would have to be willing to do the same work and his company would have to be willing to pay you.
2) You should also have to explain why some arbitrary wage should be set that the market does not support.

Maybe its easy for you to cuss at Earl to make yourself feel better, but I won't ask you to justify that. Instead, I'll ask you why exactly Earl owes it to you to insist on being paid. His position allows him to build time and if he's willing to do that then more power to him. The standard you set for right and wrong in your post was basedon not F&CKING you buddy. If you say he's wrong and must insist on being paid, chances are he'll lose the chance to do any of that flying at all. If that happens, then the position you're taking would actually harm him. So who is F&CKING whom?

Sounds to me like you don't give a sh!t about him but you're disguising it by saying you're interest is the benefit of all pilots.

Next time try less cussing and better arguments.

 

[Skaz]

TXCAP4228 your arguments are flawed from the outset. Show me an airline captain thats willing to work for free....do you work for free? I dont, I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am today and I'm proud of my achievements and I expect to be compensated, as a professional in a professional industry, for my services rendered. We are of a similar standard to that of doctors, lawyers, professors etc, they dont work for free do they?

I am willing to do and HAVE DONE the kind of work Earl speaks of. Guess what....I got paid for it too. In my company we had two blokes rocke up who arranged with CEO that they would fly on freight runs as copilots for free. This resulted in freelance pilots getting the boot and sitting without jobs, not getting paid and still having to feed their families and clothe their children.
This is bullsh*t. Even somebody as ignorant or naive as you cant argue with that. We made sure they felt VERY unwelcome and got the hell outta the company.
If the company Earl is flying for free for is a charity or NGO, then by all means fly for free. The Red Cross in South Africa has a PC12 that airline guys flies for free as a humanitarian service. Go fly BN2's or C182 for missionary outfits. CZheck climbto350, theres jobs on there.
If the company he flies for is a profit earning, capitalist economy based bussiness, then he should get paid for the work he does. Hes willingness to work for free degrades the position of ALL pilots in the industry, nevermind which company in what country you fly for. We all suffer because of it.
I am not cussing Earl to make myself feel better about anything, I dont have to, in fact I'm trying to express to him that what he is doing, is selling HIMSELF and the rest of US short.
Earl you said yourself :"I don't want to set any more of a precedence for dragging down the payscale for pilots"....then WHY are you working for free!?! you are draggin down YOUR OWN payscale...they dont want to pay you....go look somewhere else where you are respected as a professional, an employee a person and get paid accordingly!
another qoute:" would assume that a CFI wouldn't be willing to work for free simply becuase they're not having to pay for their flight time." they sure dont....not in Afrika and for d*mn sure not in the States. they train us....what does that tell you?
If you go to the Dentist, does he charge you for services rendered? does the hairdresser, does the supermarket?Of course they do, Communism is dead...supply and demand, free market economics and capitalism is alive and well.Even if the company you worked for just feeds you and lets you sleep under the stairs in the hanger, thats marginal, but ok, flying for free is not.

Earl, I dont know you, nor do I know what road you have had to travel to get where you are today, but if you were paid in your previous job, why not in this one? The company you are working for got it good....they have somebody thats willing to work hard to get somewhere, and they dont have to pay him!free labour, fantastic....for them, not you. Are you going to settle flying and working hard for nothing all your career as a pilot? I wouldnt think so. You might be inexperienced in aviation and the politics involved, as you can see there are plenty , but you are now by your actions and willingness to work for free, not only depriving yourself of an income, but also the next guy who wants to earn a living as a pilot, provide for he's family and have a rewarding and fullfilling career as a pilot.

If not for airmanship,professional ethics, plain common sense and logic, then for your own sense of selfworth and pride.......dont accept to work for nothing.

 

[enigma]

I dont have a problem with PFT, I do have one with backstabbers like him that works for free.

Skaz, when you say PFT are you talking about buying training, or are you talking about buying a job? PFT is a situation in which an operator requires newhires, regardless of previous qualifications to pay for their initial training. PFT is far worse than a lineman picking up a bit of SE time. PFT is buying a job. When an operator makes hiring decisions based upon an applicants checkbook, that's PFT. If you don't like "backstabbers" working for free, then surely you must be incensed about a pilot backstabbing us all when he agrees to buy a job. The guy flying for free affects us all in only a very small way, the PFT'r directly affects every potential newhire at his PFT company.

The sad thing is, the company would pay for the initial training itself, were it not for misguided pilots buying the job.

I remember when a current, qualified E120 pilot couldn't get a job at a PFT carrier without paying $12K for his "training". I submit that the idiots who were paying for that initial training screwed the other pilots much harder than the lineman who picks up a few hours in a mooney.

8N

 

[Timebuilder]

In the 60's and 70's when Cessna, Beech and Piper were putting out airplanes by the thousands, someone had to move them from the factories to the sales/training outlets. I would wager that many of the current senior airline captains used to build time ferrying these new 150's, 172's, 140's, etc etc etc.....and they never got a penny of cash for doing it. But, they got that valuable flight time, which helped them get the jobs they are now paid VERY well to do.

Using the logic of this thread, we should offer to let novice gardners cut out grass for free, so they can later become expert landscapers.

Car dealerships should use inexperienced 16 year olds to deliver new cars, because they will enjoy the experience of driving the cars for free.

We can come up with an number of absurd analogies to illustrate this, I'm certain. Why is is different when it comes to aviation?

Because WE LET IT BE SO.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Skaz....

TXCAP4228 your arguments are flawed from the outset. Show me an airline captain thats willing to work for free....do you work for free? I dont, I have worked **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** hard to get where I am today and I'm proud of my achievements and I expect to be compensated, as a professional in a professional industry, for my services rendered. We are of a similar standard to that of doctors, lawyers, professors etc, they dont work for free do they?

1) Earl is not an airline captain. In his words he's a newly minted commercial pilot. With his hours and experience he can't get a paying flight job anywhere. However, if his company let's him reposition airplanes on .5 hour flights every once and a while, why shouldn't he do that?
2) He is NOT taking anyone's job. You would not do this job for what the company would be willing to pay you. This is exactly why I call your argument disingenuous.
3) The only way Earl can build time is either to pay for it or grab maintenance or repositioning flights like he's doing. I say there's nothing wrong with that.
4) On the other hand, I'd say that if he followed your insistence that he not do the work for free he might actually lose the chance to do this flying, which is a real harm to him. So I ask you Skaz, who is looking out for whom?
5) Doctors, Lawyers and Professors have ALL worked for free when they were in training. Here's another thought, just to twist your tailfeathers a little more, Doctors, Lawyers and Professors ALL PAID FOR THEIR TRAINING. You may have also heard of pro bono work.....

If you go to the Dentist, does he charge you for services rendered? does the hairdresser, does the supermarket?Of course they do, Communism is dead...supply and demand, free market economics and capitalism is alive and well.Even if the company you worked for just feeds you and lets you sleep under the stairs in the hanger, thats marginal, but ok, flying for free is not.

The Dentists went through an internship. When I was in college there was a hairdressing school where I went to get haircuts for free.

Dude, don't even begin to try to explain to me how a free market works. You're on thin ice here. The market value of the work Earl is doing is not supportable beyond simply allowing him a chance to log time. You can be righteously indignant all you want but that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of pilots WOULD do that for free and that if the company did have to pay Earl for repositioning it might well change the structure of the business and then no one would be able to make these flights.

I told Earl not to cheat himself and not to get cheated. At some point, when he has more time, skill, and more to offer a potential employer, I fully expect him to ask for payment in the form of wages. But the upshot is that in his current situation there's nothing wrong with taking these flights for free if he is willing to.

Skaz, I see your point and don't necessarily disagree that he should be compensated. But my point is that his compensation does not have to be a monetary wage. The flight time he gets to log is worth a lot of cash that he won't have to spend. If that works for him, why not?

 

[wingnutt]

...especially if he talks to them and gets some sort of agreement to the effect that when he does acquire their minimuns, he is allowed on-line as a paid pilot. more often than not, the guys that do this sort of thing are merely increasing their "stock" in that company, so that when the time comes, they are allowed in.

on the other hand...if there is no more than a snowballs chance in he11 of him getting online, then it may be a waste of time, and worth it for him to investigate other avenues

P.S. interesting thread

 

[Dan CFI/CFII]

Wingnutt has an excellent idea. I would certainly think about getting an agreement like that. It will show the company that he is not just in it for the free flight time, and it will give Earl a bit of "job security" if you will. Both parties can come out ahead that way.

Dan