ALPA Monument at KCVG

[bvt1151]

Proof union busting managers use this board as propaganda. Read Confessions of Union buster by Marty Levitt. You would not believe the lengths and costs companies will go to prevent, and bust employees from becoming organized.

And therein lies the ultimate irony of union life. If you ever question ALPA, it's immediately considered proof that you're a "union busting manager." It's the Catch 22 that will prevent ALPA from ever being effective if it's own members can't challenge it to make it better.

But nothing is being done, and the association is slowly being split into oblivion. ALPA rhetoric is to blame everybody else but ourselves (bankruptcies, union busting managers, congress). Why has Skywest not voted in a union yet? Because the only incentive ALPA has provided is shame if they don't.

ALPA has proven that they are entirely unwilling to protect their prized bar-raisers, as we've seen with Comair. Worse than this, even as ALPA stands by and watches the last union success story disappear, they don't even allow the Comair pilots martyrdom status. They just blame them for the RJDC and a misguided seniority resignation policy circa 2003. Swallow your pride ALPA and show you've got the balls to stand up for those who had the balls to fight for you!

These days, I struggle to find the difference between ALPA and a simple conspiracy theory. Both say someone else is out to get them, and if you challenge the very ideas, you're considered part of the conspiracy. The only difference is, ALPA is supposed to protect it's members, not just the mystic of it's past.

Make yourself relevant, ALPA!

 

[AWACoff]

The original post has a valid point, but you all seem to be missing it. The issue isn't that Concourse C is closed, the issue is that the Comair pilots are being decimated. Concourse C is just the symbol, or "monument."

Here is the last pilot group to go on strike for the profession, and ALPA has done absolutely nothing for them. Sure, Concourse C would have closed regardless, but the highest paid regional pilots would not have been dragged through the 1113 process, and now endless furloughs had ALPA actually acted like a union.

How can we expect other pilots to raise the bar when the only pilots who have were thrown under the bus? We have nobody to blame for the whipsaw but ourselves.

Concourse C is a monument to the Comair pilots. They're both being shut down, but for different reasons.

Um, Comair isn't the only regional to raise the bar. You seem to have forgotten AWACs 2001 contract. As far as highest paid...are you insinuating that Comair had a top pay scale of $135/hr and industry leading rigs? Yes, Comair had a decent contract but they aren't/weren't the mesiah.

 

[Flightdawg]

Why not take responsbility and change that......?

Because it is easier to sit back and bitch about it.

 

[bvt1151]

Um, Comair isn't the only regional to raise the bar. You seem to have forgotten AWACs 2001 contract. As far as highest paid...are you insinuating that Comair had a top pay scale of $135/hr and industry leading rigs? Yes, Comair had a decent contract but they aren't/weren't the mesiah.

And how does minimalizing the struggles of Comair help the situation at ALPA? Get over your jealousy of who does or doesn't get credit for what and fix your union.

 

[Flightdawg]

Um, Comair isn't the only regional to raise the bar. You seem to have forgotten AWACs 2001 contract. As far as highest paid...are you insinuating that Comair had a top pay scale of $135/hr and industry leading rigs? Yes, Comair had a decent contract but they aren't/weren't the mesiah.

The post wasn't about which pilot group ever had the best contract, but about how management goes after those who stand up to them. What happened at AWACs? Didn't UAL management take them apart like DAL is doing to Comair? We're all brothers here. Let's support each other more and fight each other less.

 

[Flightdawg]

And therein lies the ultimate irony of union life. If you ever question ALPA, it's immediately considered proof that you're a "union busting manager."

Wrong. Complain about ALPA all you want, but be smart enough to include a workable solution. Bitching is easy, solutions are hard.

The comment wasn't about questioning ALPA, but about union busters working against any kind of pilot union, ALPA or not. How hard did SKYW management work to keep their pilots from unionizing?

 

[bvt1151]

Wrong. Complain about ALPA all you want, but be smart enough to include a workable solution. Bitching is easy, solutions are hard.

The comment wasn't about questioning ALPA, but about union busters working against any kind of pilot union, ALPA or not. How hard did SKYW management work to keep their pilots from unionizing?

You sure do make it easy to prove a point.

Here are some suggestions:

How many contracts sub-par to Comair did ALPA approve that have since directly cost Comair jobs? Heck, even some aircraft were directly transferred while ALPA slept. Start there. Negotiate towards a fixed RJ rate that at the very least will stop the intra-ALPA whipsaw.

What's being done on the scope front? Nothing other then allowing non-ALPA carriers to fill exceedingly bloated scope clauses because they don't want to negotiate a new bottom pay rate at mainline. Swallow your pride and negotiate a pay scale for those 90+ seaters to be at mainline. Draw the line by doing more than just saying you're drawing the line.

Acknowledge your failures and quit the Bush-esque "Mission Accomplished" tactic. ALPA pilots are hurting, and for ALPA to maintain the pilot groups they have now, let alone attract new ones, they have to at least admit that they've screwed up. Otherwise, status quo is all you're promising, and trust me, it ain't that promising.

Use Babbitt. Man, what an ally to have in the FAA. Although I must admit that ALPA seems to be less delinquent in this area than others, keep pushing. Make ALPA relevant again. Rest requirements, pilot training, minimums requirements.

And most importantly, understand how airlines work. As much as we don't want to admit it, ALPA flat out sucks here. We seem more intent with hurting management than helping our own pilots. Think progressively rather than protectively. Scope should have been solved in 1993, but drags on with 1,800 RJ's flying at crap wages, some of them being flown by overtly created alter-ego airlines.

Who knows, I may be wrong about those suggestions, but at least they've been made. At least they take back the initiative that management has had over the past 15 years.

 

[PCL_128]

You're falling into the same trap as so many other flightinfo philosophers: blaming ALPA for the actions of individual pilot groups. ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at other regionals refusing to fight for what they deserve. ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at mainline carriers voting away their scope protections.

As far as flight time/duty time, better hiring standards, and minimum flight times, it appears as though ALPA will succeed in all of those areas by early next year. But I suspect you'll still be screaming that ALPA is a failure.

 

[Metro752]

Good thing you put that K in front of CVG, or just didn't type out Cincinnati we may not have know what airport, and in which country you were speaking of. You might have meant CDG and V instead of D.

 

[bvt1151]

You're falling into the same trap as so many other flightinfo philosophers: blaming ALPA for the actions of individual pilot groups.

If ALPA isn't controlling these actions by individual pilot groups, then what good are they as a union? (OK, association to be technical) That you can put individual pilot groups at fault is a direct symptom of ALPA's inability to act as one voice. If that is truly ALPA's philosophy, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that there there is no benefit to a national union!

No personal offense, because I read and agree with the vast majority of what you write, but how is it you can even use that as an excuse? That's the single most damning evidence of ALPA's irrelevancy there is!

 

[JoeMerchant]

You're falling into the same trap as so many other flightinfo philosophers: blaming ALPA for the actions of individual pilot groups. ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at other regionals refusing to fight for what they deserve.

That's funny coming from a Gulfstream and Pinnacle alum......

 

[PCL_128]

If ALPA isn't controlling these actions by individual pilot groups, then what good are they as a union? (OK, association to be technical) That you can put individual pilot groups at fault is a direct symptom of ALPA's inability to act as one voice. If that is truly ALPA's philosophy, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that there there is no benefit to a national union!

No personal offense, because I read and agree with the vast majority of what you write, but how is it you can even use that as an excuse? That's the single most damning evidence of ALPA's irrelevancy there is!

You're basically echoing many of former President Duane Woerth's sentiments. He always wanted to see more centralized power, but pilots always started screaming about needing their autonomy whenever it was brought up. This is the problem we've always had from the very beginning days of ALPA. Pilots are control freaks, so they refuse to allow ALPA to have any centralized control. They want a big powerful union, but they don't want that union to have any control over what the individual MECs do.

To a degree, I understand this, as we don't want a "big brother" controlling every action we take. However, I do agree that we need more centralized control to prevent some of the bigger problems like scope giveaways and the fee-for-departure race for the bottom. Pilot groups should be allowed some autonomy, but when it comes to the overall strategy of raising the bar for the profession, it's time to give up some control, because this just isn't working.

 

[PCL_128]

That's funny coming from a Gulfstream and Pinnacle alum......

I did fight, Joey. You're the one that wants to tuck tail and run all the time.

 

[bvt1151]

You're basically echoing many of former President Duane Woerth's sentiments. He always wanted to see more centralized power, but pilots always started screaming about needing their autonomy whenever it was brought up. This is the problem we've always had from the very beginning days of ALPA. Pilots are control freaks, so they refuse to allow ALPA to have any centralized control. They want a big powerful union, but they don't want that union to have any control over what the individual MECs do.

To a degree, I understand this, as we don't want a "big brother" controlling every action we take. However, I do agree that we need more centralized control to prevent some of the bigger problems like scope giveaways and the fee-for-departure race for the bottom. Pilot groups should be allowed some autonomy, but when it comes to the overall strategy of raising the bar for the profession, it's time to give up some control, because this just isn't working.

The most disappointing thing is that you're entirely correct. It's kind of a circular problem, isn't it? How do you get the leadership to appeal to the pilots so the pilots will follow the leadership so the leadership will appeal to the pilots...

That, I have no suggestions for. I wouldn't even know where to start. At the very least it's clear now where the core of the problem is IMO.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If ALPA isn't controlling these actions by individual pilot groups, then what good are they as a union? (OK, association to be technical) That you can put individual pilot groups at fault is a direct symptom of ALPA's inability to act as one voice. If that is truly ALPA's philosophy, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that there there is no benefit to a national union!

(Not my text)

ALPA is very different from any other union. Here's how; ALPA is a decentralized form of
governance. That is because the member MEC's and pilot groups insist on their own autonomy in
making decisions and retaining their independence of the national. They have that authority
under the constitution and by-laws and just as you might want the president to break that rule, he
can not, under penalty of law. If he chose to enter that fight, as you suggest he should, both
MEC's and both pilot groups, I would add, would have told him not so politely to mind his own
business and butt out, again under penalty of law. As another side note, when a labor union, or a
corporation for that matter, violates those rules, it is a federal offense. So you can not simply ad
lib as you go. You must follow the rules or go to jail. That's why I have to laugh when one of our
luminaries comes up with the accusation that an ALPA rep cut their own deal for their own
benefit. You do what is in the best interests of the group you represent or face the
consequences.​

Another difference of ALPA is that ALPA officers remain members of their pilot group. At a
union like the Teamsters, and maybe every other labor union in the US, officers are employees of
the union. They are entitled to whatever pay their board decides, they get a union pension, and
union benefits. Think of the Negotiating Committee, or the NAC, being employees of the
international as opposed to members of our own pilot group. Gee, maybe we could call them
professional negotiators. The founding fathers of ALPA decided, in 1931, that their officers both
national and MEC would remain tied to their carrier and not be employees of ALPA. This was
revised in 1934 to make the president the only pilot to be an ALPA employee in order to remove
him from the influence of his own airline and make it easier to govern all of the ALPA carriers.
That continues today and the philosophy of remaining tied to your own airline is what gave rise
to the many seminars, schools, and conferences ALPA provides (over 100 in all) to assist the
member pilot groups in providing expertise in all their areas of safety, contract, legal, etc.​

Provide the education for each group to conduct their business.

​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The most disappointing thing is that you're entirely correct. It's kind of a circular problem, isn't it? How do you get the leadership to appeal to the pilots so the pilots will follow the leadership so the leadership will appeal to the pilots...

That, I have no suggestions for. I wouldn't even know where to start. At the very least it's clear now where the core of the problem is IMO.

This is a human dynamic and not limited to ALPA. However, I offer that ALPA is complete with college educated professionals, all leaders by default.

 

[aewanabe]

its delta mgt fault, its also the fault of undercutting w*************************, why use guys who want to get paid to work, when just around he corner are a bunch of morons who will do someone elses job for half the price. so long comair, hello ****************************** bags.
thanks for all your hard work at making this a profession worth having.

How are those industry-leading payrates and retirement working out for you over at VA?

 

[Flightdawg]

You sure do make it easy to prove a point.

Here are some suggestions

Nice ideas. So when are you going to start working on them?

You talk like ALPA is some evil empire in a distant land. Have you ever been to a national meeting? It's a democracy like Congress with each MEC fighting for their own people. Some of the things you mentioned took place under Duane, but times have changed including dumping Duane. There are many regional pilots in key positions at national. Things may not be changing as fast as you like, but they are changing. The best way to make them change faster is to go in and get your hands dirty making it happen.

 

[Flightdawg]

Pilot groups should be allowed some autonomy, but when it comes to the overall strategy of raising the bar for the profession, it's time to give up some control, because this just isn't working.

Slight disagreement here. How much control and over what?

You are completely correct about pilots not wanting big brother to run their MEC. I'm with them on this philosophy. A union isn't a corporation, a nation, the military or any other hierarchical organization. It's a bottom up people's movement. It's the members who are in charge. Our problem is that too many of our members either think they are still in the military or still working for Burger King. They sit around waiting for orders when they should be attending union meetings giving orders to their representatives.

Another thing too many union pilots don't understand is that they need coordinate their desires with their fellow pilots. It's all great that I have my needs and wants, but if those needs and wants don't match the other pilot's in my group then I won't get them. I need to convince others why it is a good idea. If too many pilots have a wide variety of needs and wants, then it sends a mixed message to our reps and they won't know what the membership wants. In the end, they would just do what they want. Union pilots need to be organized, focused and clear about their goals.

 

[cmrflyer]

How are those industry-leading payrates and retirement working out for you over at VA?

Great. Glad to see you got a pay raise.
Your old 190 rates are what delta took into court to show the judge just how "over paid" the comair guys were for flying the 70 seaters.
Funny how proud you are of your rates now.

 

[WayBack]

I did fight, Joey. You're the one that wants to tuck tail and run all the time.

Did you "take it to the mat"!?
When you fight, do you dress up as The Revolting Blob......(refer to the movie Billy Madison)

 

[aewanabe]

Great. Glad to see you got a pay raise.
Your old 190 rates are what delta took into court to show the judge just how "over paid" the comair guys were for flying the 70 seaters.
Funny how proud you are of your rates now.

Try some research; the 190 rates I started with at B6 were well above OH's pre-bankruptcy 70 seat rates. I also helped with the JBPA campaign which was a large factor in us obtaining a raise, and am supporting the drive for ALPA, so yeah I am proud of our rates now. What exactly are you doing for the profession over at VA, while you scream about w************************* and scumbags? Hypocrite.

 

[cmrflyer]

I suggest you do your research, your 190 pay rates were below comairs 70 seat pay rates. check you facts.

 

[cmrflyer]

at one stage I seem to remember your 12th year 190 captains pay was around $89. that was lower than 50 seat pay at clownair.

 

[aewanabe]

Yes, the B6 190 CA pay was that low at one time. At the same time 190 FOs started at 37/hr... And I chose not to work there until the payrates came up. I started under rates of 47/hr for first year FOs, and CAs started at 80/hr year one and topped out at 100, after 12 years.

All of the above was too low, and I've worked with the organizing effort to bring it up since I got here. It's still too low... In the meantime, I don't scream and gripe at Regional pilots for the ills of the industry while working at the lowest-paid narrowbody operator in the country.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

That's funny coming from a Gulfstream and Pinnacle alum......

What's even funnier is this coming from an ASA pft scumbag supporting a scab group like the rjdc!

 

[Regul8r]

ALPA has proven that they are entirely unwilling to protect their prized bar-raisers, as we've seen with Comair. Worse than this, even as ALPA stands by and watches the last union success story disappear, they don't even allow the Comair pilots martyrdom status. They just blame them for the RJDC and a misguided seniority resignation policy circa 2003. Swallow your pride ALPA and show you've got the balls to stand up for those who had the balls to fight for you!

And the biggest hypocrisy of all will be when Comair closes it's doors, another ALPA carrier will be there to pick up the flying. Where's this "ALPA Unity" we keep hearing about? Eagle pilots...ASA pilots...Mesa pilots...TSA pilots? What are you guys doing to protect your ALPA brothers at Comair? The ALPA "house" is already divided amongst itself.

Fantastic post, BVT.

 

[Regul8r]

ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at other regionals refusing to fight for what they deserve.

On the contrary! Are the MEC's to be held blameless when they tell the pilot group to vote for some P.O.S. TA because "it's the best they could get"? Where's the leadership??? I don't see it at the MEC level and certainly not the National level