ALPA Monument at KCVG

[JoeMerchant]

You're falling into the same trap as so many other flightinfo philosophers: blaming ALPA for the actions of individual pilot groups. ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at other regionals refusing to fight for what they deserve.

That's funny coming from a Gulfstream and Pinnacle alum......

 

[PCL_128]

If ALPA isn't controlling these actions by individual pilot groups, then what good are they as a union? (OK, association to be technical) That you can put individual pilot groups at fault is a direct symptom of ALPA's inability to act as one voice. If that is truly ALPA's philosophy, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that there there is no benefit to a national union!

No personal offense, because I read and agree with the vast majority of what you write, but how is it you can even use that as an excuse? That's the single most damning evidence of ALPA's irrelevancy there is!

You're basically echoing many of former President Duane Woerth's sentiments. He always wanted to see more centralized power, but pilots always started screaming about needing their autonomy whenever it was brought up. This is the problem we've always had from the very beginning days of ALPA. Pilots are control freaks, so they refuse to allow ALPA to have any centralized control. They want a big powerful union, but they don't want that union to have any control over what the individual MECs do.

To a degree, I understand this, as we don't want a "big brother" controlling every action we take. However, I do agree that we need more centralized control to prevent some of the bigger problems like scope giveaways and the fee-for-departure race for the bottom. Pilot groups should be allowed some autonomy, but when it comes to the overall strategy of raising the bar for the profession, it's time to give up some control, because this just isn't working.

 

[PCL_128]

That's funny coming from a Gulfstream and Pinnacle alum......

I did fight, Joey. You're the one that wants to tuck tail and run all the time.

 

[bvt1151]

You're basically echoing many of former President Duane Woerth's sentiments. He always wanted to see more centralized power, but pilots always started screaming about needing their autonomy whenever it was brought up. This is the problem we've always had from the very beginning days of ALPA. Pilots are control freaks, so they refuse to allow ALPA to have any centralized control. They want a big powerful union, but they don't want that union to have any control over what the individual MECs do.

To a degree, I understand this, as we don't want a "big brother" controlling every action we take. However, I do agree that we need more centralized control to prevent some of the bigger problems like scope giveaways and the fee-for-departure race for the bottom. Pilot groups should be allowed some autonomy, but when it comes to the overall strategy of raising the bar for the profession, it's time to give up some control, because this just isn't working.

The most disappointing thing is that you're entirely correct. It's kind of a circular problem, isn't it? How do you get the leadership to appeal to the pilots so the pilots will follow the leadership so the leadership will appeal to the pilots...

That, I have no suggestions for. I wouldn't even know where to start. At the very least it's clear now where the core of the problem is IMO.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

If ALPA isn't controlling these actions by individual pilot groups, then what good are they as a union? (OK, association to be technical) That you can put individual pilot groups at fault is a direct symptom of ALPA's inability to act as one voice. If that is truly ALPA's philosophy, it leads to the inevitable conclusion that there there is no benefit to a national union!

(Not my text)

ALPA is very different from any other union. Here's how; ALPA is a decentralized form of
governance. That is because the member MEC's and pilot groups insist on their own autonomy in
making decisions and retaining their independence of the national. They have that authority
under the constitution and by-laws and just as you might want the president to break that rule, he
can not, under penalty of law. If he chose to enter that fight, as you suggest he should, both
MEC's and both pilot groups, I would add, would have told him not so politely to mind his own
business and butt out, again under penalty of law. As another side note, when a labor union, or a
corporation for that matter, violates those rules, it is a federal offense. So you can not simply ad
lib as you go. You must follow the rules or go to jail. That's why I have to laugh when one of our
luminaries comes up with the accusation that an ALPA rep cut their own deal for their own
benefit. You do what is in the best interests of the group you represent or face the
consequences.​

Another difference of ALPA is that ALPA officers remain members of their pilot group. At a
union like the Teamsters, and maybe every other labor union in the US, officers are employees of
the union. They are entitled to whatever pay their board decides, they get a union pension, and
union benefits. Think of the Negotiating Committee, or the NAC, being employees of the
international as opposed to members of our own pilot group. Gee, maybe we could call them
professional negotiators. The founding fathers of ALPA decided, in 1931, that their officers both
national and MEC would remain tied to their carrier and not be employees of ALPA. This was
revised in 1934 to make the president the only pilot to be an ALPA employee in order to remove
him from the influence of his own airline and make it easier to govern all of the ALPA carriers.
That continues today and the philosophy of remaining tied to your own airline is what gave rise
to the many seminars, schools, and conferences ALPA provides (over 100 in all) to assist the
member pilot groups in providing expertise in all their areas of safety, contract, legal, etc.​

Provide the education for each group to conduct their business.

​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The most disappointing thing is that you're entirely correct. It's kind of a circular problem, isn't it? How do you get the leadership to appeal to the pilots so the pilots will follow the leadership so the leadership will appeal to the pilots...

That, I have no suggestions for. I wouldn't even know where to start. At the very least it's clear now where the core of the problem is IMO.

This is a human dynamic and not limited to ALPA. However, I offer that ALPA is complete with college educated professionals, all leaders by default.

 

[aewanabe]

its delta mgt fault, its also the fault of undercutting w*************************, why use guys who want to get paid to work, when just around he corner are a bunch of morons who will do someone elses job for half the price. so long comair, hello ****************************** bags.
thanks for all your hard work at making this a profession worth having.

How are those industry-leading payrates and retirement working out for you over at VA?

 

[Flightdawg]

You sure do make it easy to prove a point.

Here are some suggestions

Nice ideas. So when are you going to start working on them?

You talk like ALPA is some evil empire in a distant land. Have you ever been to a national meeting? It's a democracy like Congress with each MEC fighting for their own people. Some of the things you mentioned took place under Duane, but times have changed including dumping Duane. There are many regional pilots in key positions at national. Things may not be changing as fast as you like, but they are changing. The best way to make them change faster is to go in and get your hands dirty making it happen.

 

[Flightdawg]

Pilot groups should be allowed some autonomy, but when it comes to the overall strategy of raising the bar for the profession, it's time to give up some control, because this just isn't working.

Slight disagreement here. How much control and over what?

You are completely correct about pilots not wanting big brother to run their MEC. I'm with them on this philosophy. A union isn't a corporation, a nation, the military or any other hierarchical organization. It's a bottom up people's movement. It's the members who are in charge. Our problem is that too many of our members either think they are still in the military or still working for Burger King. They sit around waiting for orders when they should be attending union meetings giving orders to their representatives.

Another thing too many union pilots don't understand is that they need coordinate their desires with their fellow pilots. It's all great that I have my needs and wants, but if those needs and wants don't match the other pilot's in my group then I won't get them. I need to convince others why it is a good idea. If too many pilots have a wide variety of needs and wants, then it sends a mixed message to our reps and they won't know what the membership wants. In the end, they would just do what they want. Union pilots need to be organized, focused and clear about their goals.

 

[cmrflyer]

How are those industry-leading payrates and retirement working out for you over at VA?

Great. Glad to see you got a pay raise.
Your old 190 rates are what delta took into court to show the judge just how "over paid" the comair guys were for flying the 70 seaters.
Funny how proud you are of your rates now.

 

[WayBack]

I did fight, Joey. You're the one that wants to tuck tail and run all the time.

Did you "take it to the mat"!?
When you fight, do you dress up as The Revolting Blob......(refer to the movie Billy Madison)

 

[aewanabe]

Great. Glad to see you got a pay raise.
Your old 190 rates are what delta took into court to show the judge just how "over paid" the comair guys were for flying the 70 seaters.
Funny how proud you are of your rates now.

Try some research; the 190 rates I started with at B6 were well above OH's pre-bankruptcy 70 seat rates. I also helped with the JBPA campaign which was a large factor in us obtaining a raise, and am supporting the drive for ALPA, so yeah I am proud of our rates now. What exactly are you doing for the profession over at VA, while you scream about w************************* and scumbags? Hypocrite.

 

[cmrflyer]

I suggest you do your research, your 190 pay rates were below comairs 70 seat pay rates. check you facts.

 

[cmrflyer]

at one stage I seem to remember your 12th year 190 captains pay was around $89. that was lower than 50 seat pay at clownair.

 

[aewanabe]

Yes, the B6 190 CA pay was that low at one time. At the same time 190 FOs started at 37/hr... And I chose not to work there until the payrates came up. I started under rates of 47/hr for first year FOs, and CAs started at 80/hr year one and topped out at 100, after 12 years.

All of the above was too low, and I've worked with the organizing effort to bring it up since I got here. It's still too low... In the meantime, I don't scream and gripe at Regional pilots for the ills of the industry while working at the lowest-paid narrowbody operator in the country.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

That's funny coming from a Gulfstream and Pinnacle alum......

What's even funnier is this coming from an ASA pft scumbag supporting a scab group like the rjdc!

 

[Regul8r]

ALPA has proven that they are entirely unwilling to protect their prized bar-raisers, as we've seen with Comair. Worse than this, even as ALPA stands by and watches the last union success story disappear, they don't even allow the Comair pilots martyrdom status. They just blame them for the RJDC and a misguided seniority resignation policy circa 2003. Swallow your pride ALPA and show you've got the balls to stand up for those who had the balls to fight for you!

And the biggest hypocrisy of all will be when Comair closes it's doors, another ALPA carrier will be there to pick up the flying. Where's this "ALPA Unity" we keep hearing about? Eagle pilots...ASA pilots...Mesa pilots...TSA pilots? What are you guys doing to protect your ALPA brothers at Comair? The ALPA "house" is already divided amongst itself.

Fantastic post, BVT.

 

[Regul8r]

ALPA isn't to blame for idiots at other regionals refusing to fight for what they deserve.

On the contrary! Are the MEC's to be held blameless when they tell the pilot group to vote for some P.O.S. TA because "it's the best they could get"? Where's the leadership??? I don't see it at the MEC level and certainly not the National level