ALPA MEC tells Gary Kelly no thanks..again

[Sacha]

With all due respect, a question comes to mind; had not Northwest and other pilot groups struck when needed, would the "bar" had been raised to a level allowing the SW pilots to negotiate the pay and work rules they now enjoy? At a minimum, respect should be shown for the battles fought that essentially created the environment which led to Swapa's gains.

S

I walked at Eastern. We went down, but so eventually did Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp. That had nothing to do with "raising the bar". It was an effort to keep the bar from completely disappearing.

Northwest pilots and other employee groups were constantly going on strike because of their CEO Nyrop. For decades, NWA was the lowest paid pilots in the industry. Employee relations were a joke. Did Northwest raise the bar for SWA? That's ridiculous.

What Nyrop and Lorenzo did prove and perhaps Herb Kelleher learned was in a heavily unionized,labor intensive industry like the airlines, if you are confrontational and unfair to your employees, long term you will lose. If on the other hand you treat your employees like they are the solution,not the enemy. That they and unions are not necessary evils. Herb never told us we were going to be the highest paid, just fairly paid. 40 years of profitability and only one several day strike over 30 years ago by our Mechanics was no accident.

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long. But as far as I am concerned, Herb and Gary have shown other airlines that beating up your employees year after year doesn't accomplish anything. The employees of SWA have shown that career longevity and stability is not accomplished by constantly giving you bosses the middle finger and striving for the "highest pay until the last day". That isn't so smart after all either.

That's how I look at raising the bar.

The original post was to a NWA pilot who lectured the SWA pilots to go arbitration and do the fair thing. I called him out on the Arbitrated Red book Green book result that was at the time the biggest screw jobs in airline history. Don't believe me? Ask a Republic guy. That's how this applys to our situation. ALPA history can be inconvienant for many, but I submit if it were so fair and inclusive, you wouldn't have the majority of the pilots in ALPA now flying for regionals with a move at Delta and Usair to eliminate them completely.

 

[tzskipper]

That is a completely valid statement and I agree with it 100%. Thank you! But it has nothing to do with the Southwest/Airtran acquisition and merger of seniority lists.

shootr

Agreed. It was a question regarding a statement made by Sasha:

Why was your airline nicknamed the "Viper" airlines amoungst others? Since I know you again won't answer the question, I'll answer it for you. Because you never knew when the Northwest pilots were going to strike. Russ Laboda told me that back in the mid 70's. He was your top 747 captain in SEA back in the 70's. Given the very checkered past of your airline, I don't think you are in any position to be lecturing the SWA pilots or our airline about how we should be conducting ourselves.

S

 

[ASADFW7]

On your six how does it feel to working at B scale wages?

 

[Sacha]

Agreed. It was a question regarding a statement made by Sasha:



S

And you left off the majority of my post and cherry picked what you wanted.

 

[On Your Six]

On your six how does it feel to working at B scale wages?

You mean 1st year wages? Not bad, because even though I am on reserve, it's not as bad as my corporate gig that was 24/7 on a beeper. My 2nd year pay starts in the next couple months, and it is a pretty good jump, about $24 bucks more per hour. Luckily I have family nearby so I can stay there during short call reserve, which saves even more money. At my airline, pay moves up pretty quick in the first 3-4 years, and hopefully we will get a good contract in the next year or two, which will help even more. With retirements coming, I feel like I might be doing International widebody flying within the next few years, which is what I personally want to do. Do you need help getting a rec? We may start hiring early next year. PM me if you do.


OYS

 

[ASADFW7]

No oys six year first officer pay at SWA pays a little better.

 

[On Your Six]

No oys six year first officer pay at SWA pays a little better.

After your SLI is over, you may want that rec. Be nice, and it's yours! Godspeed!


OYS

 

[tzskipper]

I walked at Eastern. We went down, but so eventually did Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp. That had nothing to do with "raising the bar". It was an effort to keep the bar from completely disappearing.

Northwest pilots and other employee groups were constantly going on strike because of their CEO Nyrop. For decades, NWA was the lowest paid pilots in the industry. Employee relations were a joke. Did Northwest raise the bar for SWA? That's ridiculous.

What Nyrop and Lorenzo did prove and perhaps Herb Kelleher learned was in a heavily unionized,labor intensive industry like the airlines, if you are confrontational and unfair to your employees, long term you will lose. If on the other hand you treat your employees like they are the solution,not the enemy. That they and unions are not necessary evils. Herb never told us we were going to be the highest paid, just fairly paid. 40 years of profitability and only one several day strike over 30 years ago by our Mechanics was no accident.

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long. But as far as I am concerned, Herb and Gary have shown other airlines that beating up your employees year after year doesn't accomplish anything. The employees of SWA have shown that career longevity and stability is not accomplished by constantly giving you bosses the middle finger and striving for the "highest pay until the last day". That isn't so smart after all either.

That's how I look at raising the bar.

Are you serious? The "middle finger" was raised because of management and their negotiating style. To imply that any pilot group should just roll over and take it, is about as ignorant a statement I think could be made. Again, it begs the next question; What data do you think Herb used to determine what "fairly paid" was? To ignore what those groups that created the payscales and workrules that you benefit from went through, and then turn and blame them for their management induced relationships is unbelievable.

S

 

[tzskipper]

And you left off the majority of my post and cherry picked what you wanted.

It was cherry picked, because it deserved to be addressed. If you misspoke what you intended, I will apologize right now. If not, take responsibility for what was written.

S

 

[tzskipper]

I walked at Eastern. We went down, but so eventually did Lorenzo and Texas Air Corp. That had nothing to do with "raising the bar". It was an effort to keep the bar from completely disappearing.

Northwest pilots and other employee groups were constantly going on strike because of their CEO Nyrop. For decades, NWA was the lowest paid pilots in the industry. Employee relations were a joke. Did Northwest raise the bar for SWA? That's ridiculous.

What Nyrop and Lorenzo did prove and perhaps Herb Kelleher learned was in a heavily unionized,labor intensive industry like the airlines, if you are confrontational and unfair to your employees, long term you will lose. If on the other hand you treat your employees like they are the solution,not the enemy. That they and unions are not necessary evils. Herb never told us we were going to be the highest paid, just fairly paid. 40 years of profitability and only one several day strike over 30 years ago by our Mechanics was no accident.

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long. But as far as I am concerned, Herb and Gary have shown other airlines that beating up your employees year after year doesn't accomplish anything. The employees of SWA have shown that career longevity and stability is not accomplished by constantly giving you bosses the middle finger and striving for the "highest pay until the last day". That isn't so smart after all either.

That's how I look at raising the bar.

The original post was to a NWA pilot who lectured the SWA pilots to go arbitration and do the fair thing. I called him out on the Arbitrated Red book Green book result that was at the time the biggest screw jobs in airline history. Don't believe me? Ask a Republic guy. That's how this applys to our situation. ALPA history can be inconvienant for many, but I submit if it were so fair and inclusive, you wouldn't have the majority of the pilots in ALPA now flying for regionals with a move at Delta and Usair to eliminate them completely.

Understand the change. I was addressing the implication that what you now enjoy, is not (at least in part) a result of what others fought for.

I am done.

S

 

[Sacha]

Understand the change. I was addressing the implication that what you now enjoy, is not (at least in part) a result of what others fought for.

I am done.

S

I almost lost my home during the Eastern strike. My classmate and good friend refused to cross the line despite the fact that his wife wanted the Captain upgrade that would come with it. She filed for divorce and took his two young boys whom he adored. She cleaned out their bank account and left the state. One day we were walking the line together and I sensed something was wrong but he would say nothing about what was happening. I tried to get him to go out with us for some beers but he said he just wanted to go home. He went home and drove into his garage. He shut the garage door, but he didn't shut the ignition off.

The bank had foreclosed on his home that day. He was a Navy A4 driver. The greatest guy in the world. All he ever told me was his wife wanted him to be a SCAB. We found out the rest at his funeral.

Now what were you saying about what I enjoy is a result of what others fought for?

 

[tzskipper]

I almost lost my home during the Eastern strike. My classmate and good friend refused to cross the line despite the fact that his wife wanted the Captain upgrade that would come with it. She filed for divorce and took his two young boys whom he adored. She cleaned out their bank account and left the state. One day we were walking the line together and I sensed something was wrong but he would say nothing about what was happening. I tried to get him to go out with us for some beers but he said he just wanted to go home. He went home and drove into his garage. He shut the garage door, but he didn't shut the ignition off.

The bank had foreclosed on his home that day. He was a Navy A4 driver. The greatest guy in the world. All he ever told me was his wife wanted him to be a SCAB. We found out the rest at his funeral.

Now what were you saying about what I enjoy is a result of what others fought for?

Did the other airlines raise the bar for us? You can argue that all day long.

This was your question.

Again, with all due respect (as most of us that have been doing this for 20+ years have our own scars), I provided an opinion on this specific statement.

S

 

[Andy]

I have a feeling Andy plenty of high cost lawyers are looking over that agreement and getting ready for possible arbitration.

Absolutely; all three parties' (SWA, SWAPA, ATALPA) lawyers are combing over the agreement and noting both strengths and weaknesses for their clients. The fourth party to the agreement - AT management - is really no longer a stakeholder in the agreement and they have little/no stake in the future.
At the same time, SWA management has got bean counters crunching out the cost of multiple different scenarios. But from GK's statements, I'd say that this comes down to more than money in the mind of SWA management. SWA's a different animal than other airlines in that everyone there drinks the koolaid. My UAL koolaid wore off before I was off of probation. (Funny side story - when I finally made it back to LAX, I found my Chief Pilot's letter dated 9 Sep 01 congratulating me for completing probation). So this is more than simply dollars and cents for the front office.

All three parties are preparing for arbitration. But one would be naive if they thought that SWAPA and SWA weren't working on alternative solutions such as the ones that I've discussed multiple times on this board. ... I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed and if I can think of them, you'd better believe that a high priced lawyer has already made a rough plan of execution and the bean counters have a dollar figure attached to it.

Looking at recent awards, with two airlines with similar aircraft types and business plans (domestic LCCs with limited International flying), I would guess the award will be A HECK OF A LOT BETTER than the first offer.

Similar? On the surface, yes. Open up the hood and they are vastly different companies in just about every measure. How an arbitrator quantifies the value/liability of those differences is anyone's guess (although the high priced lawyers have quantified an educated guess).
Frankly, I could make a decent case for improving either side with respect to SL9.

And the pay will eventually follow, no chance of a permanent B-scale.

I agree with you on that one. I don't believe in a B scale. But I don't expect to see 717 pay to be at the same rate as 737 pay; 717 pay will be at a lower rate. And if SWA pay rates were in place prior to the acquisition, AT would show a large loss. AT was operating on razor thin margins under the old pay rates.

I just hope that Katz isn't making the same unrealistic promises that he made to the Easties; he should be downward managing ATALPA's expectations.

 

[redflyer65]

Similar? On the surface, yes. Open up the hood and they are vastly different companies in just about every measure.

OYS has a hard time understanding this. Clueless really.

Great post Andy as always. There's a ton of people on here that just simply comprohend the truth and the many different facets to this purchase.

RF

 

[Sacha]

Are you serious? The "middle finger" was raised because of management and their negotiating style. To imply that any pilot group should just roll over and take it, is about as ignorant a statement I think could be made. Again, it begs the next question; What data do you think Herb used to determine what "fairly paid" was? To ignore what those groups that created the payscales and workrules that you benefit from went through, and then turn and blame them for their management induced relationships is unbelievable.

S

Understand the change. I was addressing the implication that what you now enjoy, is not (at least in part) a result of what others fought for.

I am done.

S

This was your question.

Again, with all due respect (as most of us that have been doing this for 20+ years have our own scars), I provided an opinion on this specific statement.

S

Your implication is the Southwest employees, especially the pilots, have ridden the gravy train of sacrifices made by the other airline employees.

Ok. But then how do you reconcile that with the numerous statements by many on this forum that the Airtran employees carried the company on their backs for years and made it into the highly successful airline that it is today.
Using your logic, the wonderful contract they signed AFTER SWA bought them should be attributed to all the other airlines especially SWA. We raised the bar for them and it was nothing they did themselves. Is that it? Slippery slope.