ALPA loses latest appeal in TWA lawsuit...

[Dizel8]

ALPA, despite it warts, are still the best thing we pilots have going for us.

 

[Dan Roman]

ALPA, despite it warts, are still the best thing we pilots have going for us.

Absolutely, most of it's criticism seems to ignore the fact that certain economic realities are out of their hand, they can't save the jobs of pilots working for inept or scrupulous management and ALPA is only as good as it's local reps and members make it. It's not ALPA nationals fault for many of the decisions individual airline groups have made.

 

[aa73]

64% of the pilots were stapled, 14 year captain stapled behind a new hire. Fact. I lived it.

Not to cherry pick but the exact percentage was more like 53% stapled, 47% integrated, a little more than half. Remarkably similar to the percentage of OZ pilots tacked on to the bottom of TWA under their Date of Hire integration (the same arbitrator was used in both deals.. no kidding.)

 

[aa73]

They got DOH period.

Yes, correct - they got DOH. However, the hiring demographics between OZ and TWA during those years resulted in approx. 55% of OZ pilots ending up on the bottom of the TWA List, despite DOH.

No different than if AA merges with Jetblue and gives them DOH - guess where the Jetblue pilots will end up?

 

[ironspud]

Yes, correct - they got DOH. However, the hiring demographics between OZ and TWA during those years resulted in approx. 55% of OZ pilots ending up on the bottom of the TWA List, despite DOH.

No different than if AA merges with Jetblue and gives them DOH - guess where the Jetblue pilots will end up?

...and the OZ Captains were seat protected for 3 years.

 

[dicko]

Ok. Thanks for the info!

Consider the source and their motivation with care.

If 1000 people witnessed Lee Moak carrying bags of cash into his house and burning his ALPA computers - PCL128 would describe it as a "clear victory for ALPA and big win for its members".

 

[Turtle21]

1 On strike with EAL. The president Duffy (DAL) gets very few if any striking Eastern pilots on with DAL...
2 UAL goes through there bad time with Duane (NWA) who tells us there is no money in the war chest for us....majically there is money when NWA needs it. At the same time my "ALPA brothers" at NWA and DAL are actually writing letters to Washington to convince them NOT to allow UAL any ATSB money. One of the two carriers that was actually attacked during 9/11
3 Later ALPA "forgives" all of my "new Coworkers" who crossed picket lines in 83 and the crews that walked right by us in 89 when we were on strike at EAL.

ALPA can not get flushed fast enough in my opinion.

+ plus 1

 

[Turtle21]

Does anybody know what this is going to mean for the membership. The Damages hearing is set for October, and rumor is that it will be more than the insurance can pay.

Will there be a dues increase or assessment?

Thanks.

Dream scenario.. Insurance pays max limit which doesn't cover whole bill, ALPA assesses the rest on members, which is so high they decertify and never pay, but all have new unions. Everyone that deserves to lives happily ever after. The End.

 

[B6Driver]

seriously?

Food for thought.....how was Ozark treated when TWA bought them? Hint, pretty similar to the way AA treated TWA. I know I know, two wrongs don't make a right, but it is food for thought when you consider that now AA is on the block and they mistreated TWA who mistreated Ozark..........

Danny boy, you're not a student of history are you?
Ozark received DOH with fences and you can Google it very easily.
I’ve heard the unfounded complaints and the facts shot them down in short order.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Absolutely, most of it's criticism seems to ignore the fact that certain economic realities are out of their hand, they can't save the jobs of pilots working for inept or scrupulous management and ALPA is only as good as it's local reps and members make it. It's not ALPA nationals fault for many of the decisions individual airline groups have made.

Really ? Want to try telling that to my "eastie brothers from another mother ? " Seems they didn't get the memo.:erm:


By the way, I agree.

PHXFLYR

 

[aa73]

...and the OZ Captains were seat protected for 3 years.

True... and I would expect the same to happen to Jetblue pilots if they got DOH as well (which I don't think they will, as they would all be on the bottom.)

Again, not judging what was fair and what wasn't - just making sure the facts are there.

 

[PCL_128]

Consider the source and their motivation with care.

If 1000 people witnessed Lee Moak carrying bags of cash into his house and burning his ALPA computers - PCL128 would describe it as a "clear victory for ALPA and big win for its members".

You must have me confused with someone who likes Lee Moak.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Agreed, There are too many emotions and different perspectives to ever be able to combine two seniority lists in a reasonable manner. It really should be decided by an impartial arbitration process, providing everyone agrees to accept it and not renege on giving their word like one group we all know did......

Wow Dan, you can't even talk about ALPA and its carriers without working in a Southwest slam. Say, are you still pretending that you're impartial and don't have anything against Southwest? Or did you give that up since no one believes you anymore?

Bubba

 

[KarmaPolice]

Consider the source and their motivation with care.

If 1000 people witnessed Lee Moak carrying bags of cash into his house and burning his ALPA computers - PCL128 would describe it as a "clear victory for ALPA and big win for its members".

Ha Ha Ha!

 

[XTW]

...and the OZ Captains were seat protected for 3 years.

Also, they were not fenced off the biggest equipment that their seniority numbers could hold when they lost their CA bids. Many were flying 747 and L1011 international as FOs. To this day, no former TWA pilot can bid the 777 as an FO, no matter what their assigned seniority number could hold.

X

 

[aa73]

Also, they were not fenced off the biggest equipment that their seniority numbers could hold when they lost their CA bids. To this day, no former TWA pilot can bid the 777 as an FO, no matter what their assigned seniority number could hold.

X

Also true.

Again, I was just pointing out the common denominator of integration percentages (where the pilots ended up on the list) between both deals - common due to the same arbitrator being used. Interesting to say the least.

Good luck to my TWA brethren in getting the payout you deserve.

 

[XTW]

Also true.

Again, I was just pointing out the common denominator of integration percentages (where the pilots ended up on the list) between both deals - common due to the same arbitrator being used. Interesting to say the least.

Good luck to my TWA brethren in getting the payout you deserve.

JP,

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if I ever come back and we cross paths, the first 3 are on me! Cheers to the LBFO being turned down. F them! Thank You!

X

 

[aa73]

Look forward to it bro, thx!

 

[Kugelblitz]

Exactly. And the TWA pilots waived all rights of seniority. So, in theory the TWA could have been stapled below the new hires but were not. Remember, the TWA pilots did agree to waiving all rights of seniority and yet the entire group was not stapled.

Was it ugly for the TWA pilots? Yep. I will concede that, however it was not a staple.

As a 1997 TWA hire, I ask you to remember all these slick and intentionally vague "facts" you are posting. You may have as little choice as we did in whether or not you "choose" to waive your seniority rights.

I can tell you first hand, getting purchased out of bankruptcy can be a b*tch. Enjoy the ride.

 

[CHIEEEEFS]

common due to the same arbitrator being used

Was there an arbitrator in 2001?

 

[aa73]

AA/APA used the input of the OZ arbitrator in putting together CC. Or so I'm told.

 

[St. Nic]

ALPO is a mess and this news really really makes me smile. The thought of ALPO getting sued and the Delta and United pilots taking it down the drain is to much! Those guys tried to screw US Air in 2005 and we successfully exited bankruptcy on our own. The tried to manipulate the field and we won. now it looks like the TWA pilots won too. Goodbye ALPO!!!

 

[fr8doggie]

Wow Dan, you can't even talk about ALPA and its carriers without working in a Southwest slam. Say, are you still pretending that you're impartial and don't have anything against Southwest? Or did you give that up since no one believes you anymore?

Bubba

I believe he was referring to the America West/USAirways situation.

 

[Dan Roman]

I believe he was referring to the America West/USAirways situation.

Thanks, you are correct. I thought it was obvious.

 

[xkuzme1]

I don't think the damages will be much if anything. Even if ALPA did their best, I don't know if the result would have been much better. To say a bankrupt, going out of business airline with a crappy hub (STL) and old crappy planes was going to merge in any way that would be good for the pilots seems farfetched. I'm not exonerating ALPA, but proving you would have received a better deal might be difficult....in regards to monetary losses.

TWA had the youngest fleet in the industry at the time... Average airplane age was 6 years old. St. Louis may not have been a great city, but there is a ton of industry there. TWA had the second highest business traveler percentage, just below US Air. in those days, 80% of the revenue came from 9% of the passengers. TWA was hindered by Ichan and Carabou Travel (later to become www.lowestfare.com).

Fact is that nobody should have ever been treated as badly as TWA'ers were treated.

BTW, any airline employee that buys Cannon cameras or drinks Carabou Coffee should rething thier decisions. How much more money do you want to put in Ichans pocket?

X

 

[Dan Roman]

Danny boy, you're not a student of history are you?
Ozark received DOH with fences and you can Google it very easily.
I’ve heard the unfounded complaints and the facts shot them down in short order.

I have to confess my perception was on what others had said, so thanks for the correction.

 

[The Victors]

This sets a nice precedence for the looming AirTran vs Alpa lawsuit.

 

[PCL_128]

There's a better chance of me sleeping with Kate Upton tonight than there is of any AirTran pilot winning a lawsuit against ALPA.

 

[Mamma]

ALPO is a mess and this news really really makes me smile. The thought of ALPO getting sued and the Delta and United pilots taking it down the drain is to much! Those guys tried to screw US Air in 2005 and we successfully exited bankruptcy on our own. The tried to manipulate the field and we won. now it looks like the TWA pilots won too. Goodbye ALPO!!!

You remind me of Charlie Sheen when you said you won. (Note: $124 top scale airbus 32X captain is not "winning" by any standard.) Eventually reality set in for Sheen and he realized he was not "winning." Hopefully you realize this in the near future.

 

[Iflyamouse]

I don't think the damages will be much if anything. Even if ALPA did their best, I don't know if the result would have been much better. To say a bankrupt, going out of business airline with a crappy hub (STL) and old crappy planes was going to merge in any way that would be good for the pilots seems farfetched. I'm not exonerating ALPA, but proving you would have received a better deal might be difficult....in regards to monetary losses.

It's not so much about the deal they got as it is the fact that ALPA didn't represent them. ALPA is being sued because there were some back door deals that caused ALPA to roll over in hopes that APA would join ALPA. It's a Duty of Fair Representation lawsuit, not a 'we don't like the seniority integration' lawsuit.

Whether there will be any damages ... time will tell. Anyone who thinks they will be able to retire off their award (if there is one) will be disappointed. Maybe a $5 foot-long.