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Alpa Endorses Kerry?
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flap operator
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- Joined
- Feb 26, 2002
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- 507
Hey Rez o lushun - I am not jumping up and down regarding ALPA supporting Kerry. That's fine, it's their opinion. I just don't apprecitate being lumped into the blanket statement that "Airline Pilots support Kerry." I agree with most everything you say... and that's why I swing towards conservatism. The problem with your logic is that one cannot vote for every issue. We as Americans have to vote for the best candidate that meets our personal needs as an American. I don't agree with everything Bush has done or not done... but I know that he is the better candidate for me, given the choices. I cannot vote soley for the fact that I am an airline pilot and that there is this generalization between the Republicans and Democrats being either pro or anti labor. If Gore, or any other Democrat were in office, I'd like to know how my life as a "regional" airline pilot would be better? I cannot believe that having Kerry in office will some how make my life as an airline pilot better. I guess I'm caught with some weird limbo feelings... I mosty support my union (a very changed view and opinion post Mesaba contract debacle) but my union does not control my life and my union doesn't have the power over me to make big picture and life like decisions.
Have a good day,
FO
Have a good day,
FO
atpcliff
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 4,260
Hi!
Here is most of my reply to this same issue in the "Majors" section:
Hi!
VOTING:
“When they finally tallied ALL the votes available BUSH WON”
Well, actually when they tallied ALL the votes, nationwide, Gore had more than Bush. When they tallied the votes in FL that they decided to count, before the Supreme Court ruled in Bush’s favor, Bush was ahead. If the Supreme Court had stayed out of it, after they had counted all of the votes that would have been acceptable, I believe that Gore would’ve won in Florida, too.
If any reader doesn’t understand why Gore could have more votes than Bush, nationwide, and lose, it is because we use an Electoral College system. When you or I vote, it doesn’t count. Our votes are used as a guide for the Electoral voters.
If the most votes in a specific state favored Bush, then the Electoral voters in that state are all supposed to also vote for Bush. However, they are not, in many states, required to vote for the same candidate that we, the people, voted for. Also, in virtually all states that require the Electoral voters to vote the same way the people do, there are no negative consequences for those Electoral voters that do not vote the same way the public voted.
Therefore, regardless of if the public in the 50 states voted for Bush OR Gore, the Electoral College could have all voted for Nader (or Buchanen), and then they would have been the legal President of the United States right now, even though hardly anyone voted for them. This is why I want to get rid of the Electoral College, so that your vote and my vote actually count for something.
PS-I also think with the way Bush & co. have severely mishandled their duties, I think there chance of winning reelection has dropped well below 5%.
FLIP-FLOPPING:
U R right! Bush flip-flops all the time. So does Kerry, and so did Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, FDR, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln had NO plans to free the slaves when he entered office, but the situation changed and he “flip-flopped” and freed the slaves in Confederate Territory towards the end of the war.
As a politician, to survive, U have to be all things to all people, which involves “flip-flopping”. If U tried to run on your convictions, without flip-flopping, U would win very few elections.
U R also, right, that U don’t feel rich. Anyone making 6 figures, even in the US is very wealthy. However, when U look around, talk to people, and look at advertising, there are always people making a ton more, so U don’t feel rich. Last year I read an article about research on income and wealth. It found that family units in the US didn’t feel fiscally secure until they mad over $150K/year. If U think about it, there are a lot of whole families making $20K and even $10K/yr. here in the US. In relation to them, U R rich. Relative to an NFL player making $750K, $100K is not a lot.
HEALTHCARE FOR ALL:
I could easily see how the Healthcare for ALL idea could be considered Socialistic. I just read interview of William Clay Ford, Jr. (the CEO of Ford Motor Co.) where he advocated just that. He said that health care costs are out of control, and it is hurting the economy because corporations can no longer afford to provide health care for its workers. He said that our current system is holding back hiring at corporations, and he thought that some type of single-payer system would make more economic sense for our country.
Also, a recent Business Week cover article focused on the problem of full-time workers who don’t have any benefits, and are paid so little, that they can’t afford to buy health care (and some of them are working 2 and 3 jobs and still can’t afford health care). Business Week’s point was that something has to be done to help them, which included providing health care in some form.
The last I checked, neither Ford Motor Co. nor Business Week were left-wing, socialist organizations.
CALLS TO INCREASE THE TAX ON GASOLINE:
There are a TON of people now calling for an increased tax on gasoline, and most of them are either moderate or conservative.
The List that I’ve compiled in recent months:
Dick Cheney himself proposed taxing imported oil at a higher rate in the 1980s.
Gregory Mankiw, Chairman of President Bush’s Council of Economic Advisors proposed a $.50/gal tax in 1999.
William Clay Ford, Jr. (CEO of Ford Motor Co.) said that Ford Motor Co, in the past, and currently, supports an additional tax of $.50/gal on gasoline.
G. Richard Wagoner, Jr. (Chairman and CEO of GM) and Robert A. Lutz (GM’s Vice Chairman) both support raising the federal tax on gasoline.
Gary Becker, a Nobel Prize winning economist at the U. of Chicago (traditionally VERY conservative)
Neoconservatives Irwin Stelzer of the Weekly Standard (he is also Director of Economic Policy Studies at the Hudson Institute) and Charles Krauthammer
Conservative Blogger Andrew Sullivan
Thomas Friedman, Paul Krugman, Denny Hakim and Gregg Easterbrook in the New York Times
David Ignatius, Washington Post
Economist Philip Verleger
ALPA/LINE PILOT VOTING DISAGREEMENT:
I think there is a major economic/class disconnect among pilots, which actually makes sense logically.
Flying an aircraft is a Service Job, the same as scrubbing out a toilet at an office. We provide a service, and hence hold a blue-collar, working class position.
However, flying a plane is arguably a “Professional” career, and the top end pay is definitely light years above what a typical service worker makes (except for top end prostitutes). Many of us have a ton of education and training beyond high school, and consider ourselves middle or upper class because of our perceived job status and/or income.
ALPA is a union, just like any other blue-collar union, and it makes sense for them to typically endorse the Democratic candidate, since they are traditionally more likely to support the working man than the Republican Party. However, since many of us pilots consider ourselves white-collar or upper class, we, as individuals often favor the Republican Party. It is an interesting dichotomy.
Cliff
GRB
Here is most of my reply to this same issue in the "Majors" section:
Hi!
VOTING:
“When they finally tallied ALL the votes available BUSH WON”
Well, actually when they tallied ALL the votes, nationwide, Gore had more than Bush. When they tallied the votes in FL that they decided to count, before the Supreme Court ruled in Bush’s favor, Bush was ahead. If the Supreme Court had stayed out of it, after they had counted all of the votes that would have been acceptable, I believe that Gore would’ve won in Florida, too.
If any reader doesn’t understand why Gore could have more votes than Bush, nationwide, and lose, it is because we use an Electoral College system. When you or I vote, it doesn’t count. Our votes are used as a guide for the Electoral voters.
If the most votes in a specific state favored Bush, then the Electoral voters in that state are all supposed to also vote for Bush. However, they are not, in many states, required to vote for the same candidate that we, the people, voted for. Also, in virtually all states that require the Electoral voters to vote the same way the people do, there are no negative consequences for those Electoral voters that do not vote the same way the public voted.
Therefore, regardless of if the public in the 50 states voted for Bush OR Gore, the Electoral College could have all voted for Nader (or Buchanen), and then they would have been the legal President of the United States right now, even though hardly anyone voted for them. This is why I want to get rid of the Electoral College, so that your vote and my vote actually count for something.
PS-I also think with the way Bush & co. have severely mishandled their duties, I think there chance of winning reelection has dropped well below 5%.
FLIP-FLOPPING:
U R right! Bush flip-flops all the time. So does Kerry, and so did Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, FDR, George Washington and Abraham Lincoln. Lincoln had NO plans to free the slaves when he entered office, but the situation changed and he “flip-flopped” and freed the slaves in Confederate Territory towards the end of the war.
As a politician, to survive, U have to be all things to all people, which involves “flip-flopping”. If U tried to run on your convictions, without flip-flopping, U would win very few elections.
U R also, right, that U don’t feel rich. Anyone making 6 figures, even in the US is very wealthy. However, when U look around, talk to people, and look at advertising, there are always people making a ton more, so U don’t feel rich. Last year I read an article about research on income and wealth. It found that family units in the US didn’t feel fiscally secure until they mad over $150K/year. If U think about it, there are a lot of whole families making $20K and even $10K/yr. here in the US. In relation to them, U R rich. Relative to an NFL player making $750K, $100K is not a lot.
HEALTHCARE FOR ALL:
I could easily see how the Healthcare for ALL idea could be considered Socialistic. I just read interview of William Clay Ford, Jr. (the CEO of Ford Motor Co.) where he advocated just that. He said that health care costs are out of control, and it is hurting the economy because corporations can no longer afford to provide health care for its workers. He said that our current system is holding back hiring at corporations, and he thought that some type of single-payer system would make more economic sense for our country.
Also, a recent Business Week cover article focused on the problem of full-time workers who don’t have any benefits, and are paid so little, that they can’t afford to buy health care (and some of them are working 2 and 3 jobs and still can’t afford health care). Business Week’s point was that something has to be done to help them, which included providing health care in some form.
The last I checked, neither Ford Motor Co. nor Business Week were left-wing, socialist organizations.
CALLS TO INCREASE THE TAX ON GASOLINE:
There are a TON of people now calling for an increased tax on gasoline, and most of them are either moderate or conservative.
The List that I’ve compiled in recent months:
Dick Cheney himself proposed taxing imported oil at a higher rate in the 1980s.
Gregory Mankiw, Chairman of President Bush’s Council of Economic Advisors proposed a $.50/gal tax in 1999.
William Clay Ford, Jr. (CEO of Ford Motor Co.) said that Ford Motor Co, in the past, and currently, supports an additional tax of $.50/gal on gasoline.
G. Richard Wagoner, Jr. (Chairman and CEO of GM) and Robert A. Lutz (GM’s Vice Chairman) both support raising the federal tax on gasoline.
Gary Becker, a Nobel Prize winning economist at the U. of Chicago (traditionally VERY conservative)
Neoconservatives Irwin Stelzer of the Weekly Standard (he is also Director of Economic Policy Studies at the Hudson Institute) and Charles Krauthammer
Conservative Blogger Andrew Sullivan
Thomas Friedman, Paul Krugman, Denny Hakim and Gregg Easterbrook in the New York Times
David Ignatius, Washington Post
Economist Philip Verleger
ALPA/LINE PILOT VOTING DISAGREEMENT:
I think there is a major economic/class disconnect among pilots, which actually makes sense logically.
Flying an aircraft is a Service Job, the same as scrubbing out a toilet at an office. We provide a service, and hence hold a blue-collar, working class position.
However, flying a plane is arguably a “Professional” career, and the top end pay is definitely light years above what a typical service worker makes (except for top end prostitutes). Many of us have a ton of education and training beyond high school, and consider ourselves middle or upper class because of our perceived job status and/or income.
ALPA is a union, just like any other blue-collar union, and it makes sense for them to typically endorse the Democratic candidate, since they are traditionally more likely to support the working man than the Republican Party. However, since many of us pilots consider ourselves white-collar or upper class, we, as individuals often favor the Republican Party. It is an interesting dichotomy.
Cliff
GRB
ALPA is a political machine. They do not need the permission of its members to endorse a particular presidential candidate. They do not take a vote from members every time they have to make a move, just like our government does. I do believe that a majority of pilots are more conservative as a result of their background and where they were born. This does not change the fact that the union has to support a more liberal candidate because of their stance on labor issues. This has paid off many times in the past, ie JFK, and Truman(?). Even the many Republican guys working at the union know this. When the time comes to take action we will not have support from a republican administration, just look at the 80's. Some of us argue that certain conservative values are more important than our jobs. I tend to disagree since I believe if you cant put food on the table and feed your family the rest is not as important.
Last edited:
Mesabi Miner
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2004
- Posts
- 492
greyhound
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2003
- Posts
- 200
Hey Greyhound.
OK. I would like to see how many ALPA members on this board agree. If you belong to ALPA, please reply "KERRY" or "BUSH" to show who you would prefer ALPA endorse.
It was a simple one-or-the-other. Perhaps Bush voters are the only ones who can read. Jackass. <G>
--Sky
Read what was requested in the original post.greyhound said:
OK. I would like to see how many ALPA members on this board agree. If you belong to ALPA, please reply "KERRY" or "BUSH" to show who you would prefer ALPA endorse.
It was a simple one-or-the-other. Perhaps Bush voters are the only ones who can read. Jackass. <G>
--Sky
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