ALPA Age 60 Survey

[LarryinTN]

But in every instance you mentioned, age is not the only criterion for the decision. ... The Age 60 rule has only one arbitrary threshold to meet.

There's no difference. Both criteria are based soley on age, not the individual's actual cognative abilities. The recent research on brain development actually shows that age 16 or 17 is too early for driving as the part of the brain which foresees the posibility of negative outcomes is severely underdeveloped at that point. Those brain functions are not fully matured until around age 25. Driver's accident rates support those findings and resulted in most car rental companies establishing a minimum age of 25 for renters.

But we do. Cognative ability is checked on the semi annual proficiency ride/LOFT/line check. Medicals, also twice a year.

There is no such check on pro-checks, loft or in the FAA required medicals.

As an example, take the crash last November of the Gulfstream attempting to land at Houston. What would have happened to a crew who crashed in such a fashion on their pro-check or LOFT? They would have received some additional training and would be right back on the line unless they were so far gone that they crashed repeatedly.

There simply is no quantitative measure that a check airman can use to evaluate the cognative ability of a crewmember.

 

[N2264J]

To fire someone who wants to work base on their age alone is discrimination.

You'd better have a talk with the EEOC and the courts then. They decided that there are times when age based qualifications are appropriate and not considered discriminitory. The part 121 airline proffession was considered to be one of those careers where a limit was quite legal

Slavery was legal in this country until the mid 1860s. What's your point?

 

[Purpledog]

Be careful for what you wish for old guys, you might just get it. If they do change this (which they won't because there is no enhancement to safety), I guarantee it won't be without a cost. That would be in the form of MUCH, much stricter medical standards if they are going to justify changing the age limit. I just hope those higher standards will be applied to ALL pilots, not just the over 60 group. We wouldn't want to discriminate, would we?

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

That would be in the form of MUCH, much stricter medical standards if they are going to justify changing the age limit. I just hope those higher standards will be applied to ALL pilots, not just the over 60 group. We wouldn't want to discriminate, would we?

Sounds good to me.

 

[767pilot]

Slavery was legal in this country until the mid 1860s. What's your point?

And if it was 1865 I would be worried about who was going to harvest my plantation, but it is not. Age 60 is not legal discrimination.

 

[N2264J]

But we do. Cognative ability is checked on the semi annual proficiency ride/LOFT/line check. Medicals, also twice a year.

There is no such check on pro-checks, loft or in the FAA required medicals.

Are you saying the annual proficiency ride is not a check of cognative ability? Let me help you out with that:

cog ni tion (kog nish' en) n 1. the act or process of knowing; perception. 2. something known or perceived.
3. knowledge cog ni tive (kog' ni tiv) adj.

 

[LarryinTN]

Are you saying the annual proficiency ride is not a check of cognative ability?

The problems that we develop with age are generally associated with our ability to maintain situational awareness and work through any areas of confusion that arrise.

Flying a well known pro-check profile that you have been flying for twenty or thirty years is not particularly challenging to your cognative ability. You know the pitch/power settings that the simulator wants and you know the manuevers that are required. If you do get confused, or lose situational awareness, you get a little retraining and try again. The chances that you'll make the same mistake again are quite low.

Think of an elderly driver. The problem isn't that they can't control the car. The problem is that they stop in the middle of the road while they try to decide which way to go, they drive where they should not drive, etc. They get confused too easily.

 

[767pilot]

Think of an elderly driver. The problem isn't that they can't control the car. The problem is that they stop in the middle of the road while they try to decide which way to go, they drive where they should not drive, etc. They get confused too easily.

Why just the other day I followed one of our planes across the Atlantic where the pilot had left the right turn signal on for the whole flight!

 

[LarryinTN]

Obviously, you're joking but I once saw an older pilot complete his cockpit setup leaving the DC Start Pump, Mach Trim, Yaw Damper and Anti-Skid switches all in the wrong position!

 

[b757driver]

OK, then why is it OK for BOTH judges and senators to work well into their EIGHTIES and influence people's lives, sometimes in a big way?
The age 60 rule was, when it came out, purely political. That's fact. If we don't change with the times we and everthing around us stagnates. No wonder the US is being denigrated around the world right now with our antiquated "laws". Only in America as they say! Many countries around the world have moved on and realized it's no longer appropriate. In this respect, America is left standing in the Middle Ages, not as a leader. I know, because I have worked extensively overseas. Incidently, they fly the SAME planes we do, have a level of experience/expertise that we do - if not more - and go through a much more rigorous initial training than us FAA rated guys. I don't see their planes falling out of the skies the past few years because there is an old fogey at the controls!!
There is absolutely NO rational reason why pilots should have to retire solely because of age, especially if they continue to pass their physicals and PCs. After all, we are a very select bunch. How many lawyers, doctors & surgeons do you know that are currently mandated to have 6-monthly PCs and medicals where upon their careers theoretically hang? They usually only get scrutinized if there is a malpractice suit, not as a matter of routine.
Also, how can you answer the deal whereby you HAVE to retire because of age but you not prohibited from drawing social security until age 62? Same lawmakers. Nice, very nice.
The beauty of all this is that in a democratic country (last time I checked, it still was) people are given the freedom to choose. Let that freedom be exercised and let the individual choose to retire earlier than average joe or not. Too much govt. interference is bad for everyone - they should be examining their own back yard, so to speak!

 

[pilotyip]

LJ ABX, that is amazing, I once saw a new hire in his 20's, with a college degree do the exact same thing.

 

[LarryinTN]

b757driver,

Your message didn't address any of my arguments.

Did you know that in the medical community it is common practice for surgeons to stop performing surgery at about age 60? They may continue to treat patients but they stop performing surgery because errors in skill or judgement can have immediate and life altering or threatening consequences.


PilotyIP,

Presumably a new-hire can learn. If he can't then that's what the probationary period is for. This guy was a 58 year old Captain who had spent his entire adult life as a pilot. He was well known within the F/O ranks for making those same types of mistakes flight after flight after flight.

Do both of you deny that we all lose cognative ability as we age and that some people lose it sooner than others?

 

[pilotyip]

LJ-ABX, I agree that is why some sort of cognitive testing, say at starting about age 45 should be instituted to continue flying beyond that age. We all know there are great differences in capabilities that are not age dependant.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

This guy was a 58 year old Captain who had spent his entire adult life as a pilot. He was well known within the F/O ranks for making those same types of mistakes flight after flight after flight.

So then your age 60 rule does absolutely nothing to help this problem. The answer is to wait around till he's 60 to do something about it? That's ludicrous. If anything, this is an example of how having a rule based on age is ridiculous. If this is such a well-known problem flight after flight after flight, your pilot group has a lot bigger problems than an age law.

Do both of you deny that we all lose cognative ability as we age and that some people lose it sooner than others?

YES! That's my point entirely. It's the meat of why a rule based on an arbitrary number is outrageous and unfair! How can you come to this conclusion and then point to a number and smile and say "don't change that age 60 thing, though!" Absolutely amazing.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

that is why some sort of cognitive testing, say at starting about age 45 should be instituted to continue flying beyond that age.

That's just as silly (and discriminatory). You make all commercial pilots, regardless of age pass the same test.

 

[Freight Dog]

Hugh, I love ya man! But your a$$ better retire off to PI with a lifetime stash of viagra when you turn 60.

If ALPA's answer to the current state of the industry is to up the retirement age, we have WAY worse problems than I ever thought.

I voted NO!!! I want to retire at 60. I don't want to be forced to work til I slump over during a V1 cut in the sim or a real life engine failure.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

If ALPA's answer to the current state of the industry is to up the retirement age, we have WAY worse problems than I ever thought. .

FD, my brothah, the current state of the industry is irrelevant to this issue. In 20 years, the state of the industry in 2005 won't make a hill of beans. Not even germane.

I voted NO!!! I want to retire at 60. I don't want to be forced to work til I slump over during a V1 cut in the sim or a real life engine failure.

Well, that's what YOU want, bro. If you want to retire at 60, then do so! If you want to retire at 53, by all means do so. If I want to retire at 63, who's to tell me that I can't? I'm looking more at 58 myself, but if a guy (or old bag) wants to go longer, then nobody should stop them based on a meaningless figure. Off to waikiki to look for that moron with buck-ass teeth at Threes.

 

[b757driver]

I voted NO!!! I want to retire at 60. I don't want to be forced to work til I slump over during a V1 cut in the sim or a real life engine failure.

Good for you! But, no one is being FORCED to work. It is about FREEDOM of choice. You are LUCKY if you are able to choose when you WANT to retire - many more people do not have that choice. I also suggest that the "state of the industry" has little to do with retirement age - it goes far deeper, my friend. So, why don't you retire @ 60 like you want and let others decide what they want, rather than dictate what they should do. FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!!

 

[Freight Dog]

FD, my brothah, the current state of the industry is irrelevant to this issue. In 20 years, the state of the industry in 2005 won't make a hill of beans. Not even germane.

Bruddah Hugh... our profession is going to sh*t. ALPA lost its backbone and we're bickering over age 60 while our pay, work rules, retirement, etc. all going/gone to sh*t. All the while the management is laughing their asses off. With thousands of ALPA pilots still furloughed, and who stand to remain furloughed even longer should this pass, this is a highly-divisive move at this time.

Off to waikiki to look for that moron with buck-ass teeth at Threes.

Good luck finding him... I think someone drowned his ass already..

 

[Freight Dog]

Good for you! But, no one is being FORCED to work. It is about FREEDOM of choice. You are LUCKY if you are able to choose when you WANT to retire - many more people do not have that choice. I also suggest that the "state of the industry" has little to do with retirement age - it goes far deeper, my friend. So, why don't you retire @ 60 like you want and let others decide what they want, rather than dictate what they should do. FREEDOM OF CHOICE!!!

Ahhh... freedom of choice. Well, it's not exactly freedom of choice if retiring before MANDATORY retirement carries a financial penalty, now is it?

Why is it that ATC mandatory retirement age is 55? It might be for safety reasons..