ALPA age 60 survey results

[Neubyfly]

http://www.baltimoresun.com/busines...iness-headlines
Many pilots ask raising of age limit from 60 to 65
Earlier retirees lose out as airlines cut pensions


Bloomberg News

May 26, 2005

WASHINGTON - Hundreds of U.S. airline pilots are asking Congress to raise their mandatory retirement age to 65, saying the change won't threaten safety and would give workers more time to recover money lost to pension cuts.

The Federal Aviation Administration since 1959 has required that airline pilots retire at age 60. Southwest Airlines Co., JetBlue Airways Corp. and pilots at other carriers, including those with pension troubles, want to extend the limit. Larger airlines and their pilot unions oppose a change.

"I regard it as a moral issue," said Herb Kelleher, Southwest's 74-year-old chairman, who was flanked by about 30 current and retired pilots at a Capitol Hill news conference yesterday. "We have a bunch of splendid pilots right behind me who would be perfectly safe and totally competent if they were able to fly in our cockpits today."

Some of the biggest U.S. carriers, such as US Airways Group Inc. and United Airlines, have moved to terminate pensions as the industry posted combined losses of $33 billion over the past four years. Others, including Delta Air Lines Inc. and Northwest Airlines Corp., have sought to spread payments into pension plans over a longer period to keep plans viable.

Paul Turner, 58, a US Airways pilot, said his expected retirement check fell to about $38,000 a year from $90,000 when the airline terminated pensions in its first bankruptcy reorganization of 2003.

"I cannot afford to retire at age 60 because of what happened to me," Turner, of Charlotte, N.C., said. "I have to go out and find some other work and start over at that age."

Legislation in the House and Senate has gained momentum because of pension troubles, Turner said. Pilots whose plans are terminated and taken over by the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. may get 33 percent less in annual payments because of the age-60 rule, he said.

Increasing the retirement age "could be positive" for pensions, said Sen. James M. Inhofe, the Oklahoma Republican who sponsored legislation to raise the limit. "If people are able to work a little bit longer, maybe time is in the favor of solvency," he said in an interview.

UAL Corp.'s United, the world's second-largest carrier, won bankruptcy court approval this month for a plan to terminate its pensions and turn them over to the PBGC. The change means $3.2 billion in lost benefits for employees.

Support lacking

The other three largest U.S. airlines, AMR Corp.'s American, Delta and Northwest, back legislation that would let them spread out payments to pension plans to avoid potential bankruptcy filings.

Past efforts to raise the age limit stalled from a lack of union and industry support. The FAA, which backs the age-60 rule, will continue to decide the matter unless Congress acts.

The rule "has served the industry well," FAA spokesman Les Dorr said. "There's just no scientific consensus that would give us a basis for changing that age-60 limit," he said. The agency has said pilots' decline in cognitive functions and increased risk of illness over age 60 may have an effect on safety.

The PBGC can't ensure that pilots get the maximum benefit unless the retirement age is 65, said Jeffrey Speicher, an agency spokesman. Sen. Daniel K. Akaka, a Hawaii Democrat, has introduced legislation that would let the agency treat a 60-year-old pilot the same as 65-year-old workers in other professions.

The Air Transport Association, the Washington trade group for the biggest U.S. airlines, also supports the current age rule. "It should be up to the FAA" to determine if changes need to be made, said Diana Cronan, a group spokeswoman.

Southwest Airlines' pilot union, with 4,710 members, and a group called Airline Pilots Against Age Discrimination, with members from other airlines, are leading the lobbying effort to change the rule.

JetBlue, which like Southwest doesn't have the defined-benefit pension plan typical of larger carriers, also believes an age increase "makes sense," said Rob Land, the company's government affairs vice president.

Pilots surveyed

Raising the retirement age would probably cost the biggest airlines more, because higher pay and benefits would outweigh savings from lower training costs, said Cordle, who also is a United pilot.

Financial "turmoil" in the industry helped persuade the Air Line Pilots Association, the world's largest pilot union, to survey members for their opinion on the age-60 rule, said Pete Janhunen, a spokesman for the union, which represents 64,000 pilots in the United States and Canada.

The telephone poll, combined with a Web survey, found that 56 percent of pilots oppose changing the rule and 42 percent support a change, the union said yesterday. The union's executive board decided to continue its 25-year support for the age-60 rule, the statement said.

The Allied Pilots Association, which represents 13,500 pilots at American, also opposes a rule change, said Gregg Overman, a union spokesman. "It's just not something that should be decided on one's personal finances," he said of the retirement age. "It's a safety issue."

Copyright © 2005, The Baltimore Sun

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

This issue would not even be coming up if ALPA had grown some balls and put a stop to the blatent rape of pensions.

I for one do not wish, nor have any desire to fly past 60. If ALPA continues their spineless defense of earned pensions then the very least they should do is to push for SS and medicare benefits at retirement. They also should work to repeal the lower payout from the PBGC due to forced retirement at 60.

Thanks Boeingman. You may now return to your regularly scheduled lifestyle.

 

[WildBlue]

This issue would not even be coming up if ALPA had grown some balls and put a stop to the blatent rape of pensions.

I for one do not wish, nor have any desire to fly past 60. If ALPA continues their spineless defense of earned pensions then the very least they should do is to push for SS and medicare benefits at retirement. They also should work to repeal the lower payout from the PBGC due to forced retirement at 60.

On your first point, do you know anything at all about bankruptcy? When a company goes into bankrupcy, the ONLY factor the bankruptcy judge considers is how to keep the company going. If that means that you throw a baby under the train, so be it. ALPA can do almost nothing to prevent a DB plan from being terminated and thrown to the PBGC. As for the rape of pensions, unfortunately, the carriers were paying into the plans exactly what they were legally obligated to do. Most of these plans were in great shape just five years ago.

As for the second point, ALPA has ordered their lobbyists to press for changes to SS and Medicare so that pilots are eligible at age 60. This has been policy for several years and was on the agenda for the Executive just this week. After discussion with the Legislative Affairs staff, it became apparent that Congress would not, and will not, make any exception for pilots. In fact, the policy was eliminated because it drew attention to a policy (age 60) that many in Congress are beginning to see as outdated. The union had to make a choice between the two and the membership voted for age 60.

Blaming ALPA is entirely misplaced. You are fighting a Republican Congress and President who have no sympathy at all for airline pilots or labor in general. What is most likely to happen is an increase in age 60, no help in stopping the loss of DB plans and no more money for the PBGC; a trifecta.

 

[Boeingman]

On your first point, do you know anything at all about bankruptcy?

Let’s see. I walked for 25 months over the first one in 1983. Endured the second one in the 90's, so yes, I do have a slight inkling of the bankruptcy process.

When a company goes into bankrupcy, the ONLY factor the bankruptcy judge considers is how to keep the company going. If that means that you throw a baby under the train, so be it. ALPA can do almost nothing to prevent a DB plan from being terminated and thrown to the PBGC. As for the rape of pensions, unfortunately, the carriers were paying into the plans exactly what they were legally obligated to do. Most of these plans were in great shape just five years ago.

Thank you for the text book explanation of the process. I disagree with you that ALPA can do "nothing". That is the apologists answer for ALPA’s lack of foresight, planning and defense of earned pensions and retirement plans. Shall I add that this is one of the reasons we are paying dues in the first place? It is time the union starts acting like a union and take some definitive action other than some editorials in that fancy magazine and a few speeches here and there.

You also took my term of the rape of pensions out of context.

As for the second point, ALPA has ordered their lobbyists to press for changes to SS and Medicare so that pilots are eligible at age 60. This has been policy for several years and was on the agenda for the Executive just this week. After discussion with the Legislative Affairs staff, it became apparent that Congress would not, and will not, make any exception for pilots. In fact, the policy was eliminated because it drew attention to a policy (age 60) that many in Congress are beginning to see as outdated. The union had to make a choice between the two and the membership voted for age 60.

Doesn’t sound like all of the lawmakers feel like this about exceptions for pilots. In fact, you seem to be mistaken that it has no interest in the government level. Further, it is obscene to push for a policy that requires people to work longer because they have lost their contractually earned plans. I am also confused about this membership "vote". The only thing I have seen from national was a poll taken. I am also sleeping really well tonight knowing ALPA is "monitoring" this legislative process.

Pension Legislation Information​

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May 17, 2005


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Many Continental Pilots have called CAL ALPA and the R&I Committee asking about the status of pension legislation that has been introduced in Congress.

Most pilots are concerned about the interest rate used to compute lump sums being changed to a higher interest rate.

There are two primary bills that have been introduced.

"The Employee Pension Preservation Act of 2005" – Senate Bill [S861], introduced by Senators Isakson [R-GA] and Rockefeller [D-WV] on April 20, 2005.

"Employee Pension Preservation and Taxpayer Protection Act of 2005" – House Bill [HR2601], introduced by Representative Tom Price [R-GA] on May 4, 2005.

Except for the titles, the provisions of the two bills, as introduced are identical and neither bill limit’s a plan’s ability to pay a lump sum.

ALPA National Legislative Affairs and Retirement & Insurance Departments are closely monitoring this legislation as is CAL ALPA Legislative Affairs and R&I Committees. Updates will be posted on ALPA and CAL ALPA web sites as the legislation progresses.

In addition, Senator Akaka [D-HI] has introduced "The Pilots Equitable Treatment Act" – Senate Bill [S685].

This bill seeks to amend the Employee Retirement Income Security Act [ERISA] of 1974 to require the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation [PBGC] to pay the age 65 PBGC guarantee to pilots [who must retire at age 60 in the event of a distress termination of a pension plan], rather than actuarially reducing the guarantee based upon an age 65 normal retirement date as is now the case

Blaming ALPA is entirely misplaced. You are fighting a Republican Congress and President who have no sympathy at all for airline pilots or labor in general. What is most likely to happen is an increase in age 60, no help in stopping the loss of DB plans and no more money for the PBGC; a trifecta.

Not entirely. What you say has a great deal of validity to a point. Perhaps these same people would respect the union more if an aggressive plan of action was followed by all of us. To date, the impotent response and bending over for management from scared MEC’s combined with lame and weak responses on all levels from national must come to an end. The results have been obvious and will continue. Status quo is not working.

 

[seefive]

Boeingman,

You rant about how ALPA should act but give no substantive actions that they should take. It's all hot air unless you come up with some idea. Even a lame one would do.

 

[Boeingman]

Boeingman,

You rant about how ALPA should act but give no substantive actions that they should take. It's all hot air unless you come up with some idea. Even a lame one would do.

Will I get Duane's $500K salary and benefits?

 

[ultrarunner]

Overall, nearly 38% of eligible members participated in the web survey. In addition to the web survey, traditional telephone polling augmented the web survey to ensure an accurate demographic representation of the membership.​

Will all the surveys, what was the total participation?

Did 62+% not give a $HIT???​

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You are fighting a Republican Congress and President who have no sympathy at all for airline pilots or labor in general. .

That a majority of the airline pilots probably voted for......
Which indicates that having Bush in office is more important than your pensions.


Boeingman, still haven't seen pragmatic solutions.

It is hard for ALPA to spearhead a charge when most of the members are cowering in the foxhole. Your comments are generalities. Such as 'act like a union' and 'Woerths salary'

Compared to other unions ALPA is fairly effective, however, with Age 60 poll particpation rates (38%), LEC meeting turnout rates (5%), ALPA-PAC participation rates (17%), it is impossible to get highly trained, college schooled pilots educated.

The membership is usually 6-12 months behind the times..... Hopefully that time frame won't make it too late.....

Fellas, it is time. Time to get involved, get informed and get effective.

 

[Boeingman]

That a majority of the airline pilots probably voted for......
Which indicates that having Bush in office is more important than your pensions.


Boeingman, still haven't seen pragmatic solutions.

It is hard for ALPA to spearhead a charge when most of the members are cowering in the foxhole. Your comments are generalities. Such as 'act like a union' and 'Woerths salary'

Compared to other unions ALPA is fairly effective, however, with Age 60 poll particpation rates (38%), LEC meeting turnout rates (5%), ALPA-PAC participation rates (17%), it is impossible to get highly trained, college schooled pilots educated.

The membership is usually 6-12 months behind the times..... Hopefully that time frame won't make it too late.....

Fellas, it is time. Time to get involved, get informed and get effective.

We need a much more effective leader. I think Woerth has lost a great deal of credibility with the rank and file over this and other issues. Further, I don't care what you think, but it is a crime the money being paid to these boys in Herndon while the membership is getting porked across the board. It sets just as bad of an example as management and CEO pay while the employees face cut after cut after cut.

I would like to see much more aggresive campaigning and lobbying on the political front. To date, what is been put forth on the legislative effort is weak and impotent. More importantly anything at all seems after the fact. Why isn't ALPA backing those pension issues in full force with an all out PR and using every means possible instead of just "monitoring" the situation. If you feel that your dues are being spent wisely with this type of representation, more power to you.

I am all for a CHAOS type actions when these pension issues arise. But the weaker MEC's (including ours) who have allowed these retirement travesties to take place will not allow this to happen. No one should be taking these retirement plans for any reason whatsoever. So far the only union acting with any guts is the IAM at UAL.

Most of us are in the foxholes now because our faith in the leadership keeps us there.