ALPA age 60 survey results

[AV8OR]

For many, the reason for rolling forward the age 60 rule a few years to 65 or whatever is to make up for the fact that airline management has raided the pensions of those now coming upon retirement, through the courts, in essence "changing the rules at the end of the game" on pensions. Why has management done this to these pilots? A. Because they can. B. So that they, the management, can mitigate the affects, of both seen and unforseen event's negative impact on their company's and their personal bottom line. This indeed sucks that they have found judges to uphold this practice.

Most pilots find this "changing of the rules" on pensions, an abhorent step to remedy managements problems, taking from those making less in order to prop up those making the most.

However, it would seem that some of those who take issue with management "changing the rules" on pension, have no problem then turning around, and attempting to "change the rules" regarding retirement at 60. Why do those pilots want to change it now? A. Because they can, or would like too. B. So that they, the pilots who would to change the rule for this reason, "can mitigate the affects, of both seen and unforseen event's negative impact on their....personal bottom line"

Basically, using the "they raided my pension" argument as an excuse for an age 60 rule change, just takes the affect of managements incompetence and shifts the burden to a lower rung of seniority. In affect saying, "They took what I had coming from me, so now I'm gonna take what you had coming from you."

Changing the age 60 rule to reflect an older, more fit population of the future, I think, is a valid proposal, that could be done to affect those hired after the rule change is made,.....but then that wouldn't help those who need the money now. would it.

 

[FlyingFish]

It might interest youngins to know that the Aerospace Medical Association, the Civil Aviation Medical Association, the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, and numerous other medical professionals and organizations have concluded that individual testing of pilots is preferred to a blanket age rule.

There is no evidence of an increased risk in airline piloting as pilots approach 60 years of age. The international community has generated over 15,000 PILOT YEARS of airline experience for airline pilots over the age of 59 with no negative consequences. The United States and France are the only developed nations that retain an age 60 limit. And France has an excuse, their Air France is a nationalized airline and France has a federal retirement age of 60. The US has no such retirement policy. Quite the contrary, we have laws that make age discrimination in employment illegal.
No matter how you look at it, this is an industry that has a law that says its ok to discriminate against your age...the only one.

 

[AV8OR]

To bad a survey wasn't done say, 10 years ago. I'd love to see if the percentage of pilots who wanted to see it changed was just as high as it is now. Funny how this epiphany of injustice has come on strong in the last couple of years.

 

[seefive]

typhoon,

are you reall being a tough guy on an internet board? that's funny.

and sorry...........if your parents/grandparents didn't save, they are fools. simple fact. not trying to get you upset.

 

[typhoonpilot]

are you reall being a tough guy on an internet board? that's funny.

and sorry...........if your parents/grandparents didn't save, they are fools. simple fact. not trying to get you upset.

What is really funny, is that someone who appears to have been in the Air Force doesn't understand the concept of honor and respect.

Personally, I would never call someone's parents or grandparents fools for I have honor and respect for the elder generation. What you are failing to realize in your little world of being perfect is that people from my parents generation grew up during the great depression. For them to have food on the table and a roof over the head was doing well. This idea of saving money for the future, while nice, wasn't something they were able to do.


TP

 

[klhoard]

Roth IRA's are tax free when you take the money out after you are 59 1/2! These are all good things to know for all of you 20 and 30 something young pilots. So in 30 years I don't want any whining pilots on this site!

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The majority of us aren't eligible to put money into a Roth IRA. . . .
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[Neubyfly]

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The majority of us aren't eligible to put money into a Roth IRA. . . .
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How do you figure? I would say a lot more have become eligible over the last few years! Besides, I believe we are ALL eligible for a traditional IRA.

Who Can Establish a Roth IRA?
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Any individual who has taxable compensation or self-employment income (earned by sole proprietors and partners) for the year may establish and fund a Roth IRA. To be eligible to make a participant contribution, the individual must have a modified adjusted gross income (AGI) that is less than a certain amount, depending on the tax-filing status of the individual. Here are the modified AGI limits:[/font]

• [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$160,000 for individuals who are married and file a joint tax return.
  [/font]
• [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$10,000 for individuals who are married, lived with their spouse at anytime during the year, and file a separate tax return.
  [/font]
• [font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]$110,000 for individuals who file as single, head of household, or married filing separately and did not live with his/her spouse at any time during the year.[/font]

Traditional IRA:

Eligibility Requirements (IRS):

• Member must have compensation (earned income from working)
• Must be alive at the time the account is established)
• Must be under age 70.5 to establish new IRA (rollovers and transfers are excluded)

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

..... to reflect an older, more fit population of the future.......

Did you mean to type the word "FAT" ?

 

[MVSW]

It might interest youngins to know that the Aerospace Medical Association, the Civil Aviation Medical Association, the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, and numerous other medical professionals and organizations have concluded that individual testing of pilots is preferred to a blanket age rule.

There is no evidence of an increased risk in airline piloting as pilots approach 60 years of age. The international community has generated over 15,000 PILOT YEARS of airline experience for airline pilots over the age of 59 with no negative consequences. The United States and France are the only developed nations that retain an age 60 limit. And France has an excuse, their Air France is a nationalized airline and France has a federal retirement age of 60. The US has no such retirement policy. Quite the contrary, we have laws that make age discrimination in employment illegal.
No matter how you look at it, this is an industry that has a law that says its ok to discriminate against your age...the only one.

So your saying that if I was 90 years old and could still pass a checkride that I should be PIC of a jet with 500 PAX?? (LOL) With saying that, there has to be some age... weather its 60, 62,65... There is NO way we can let pilots fly until they fail a med.

 

[MVSW]

What is really funny, is that someone who appears to have been in the Air Force doesn't understand the concept of honor and respect.

Personally, I would never call someone's parents or grandparents fools for I have honor and respect for the elder generation. What you are failing to realize in your little world of being perfect is that people from my parents generation grew up during the great depression. For them to have food on the table and a roof over the head was doing well. This idea of saving money for the future, while nice, wasn't something they were able to do.


TP

Look, most of all of our grandparents grew up during the great depreession. Pretty sure my grandparents saved money. Its all about being smart, like saying that your grandparents coundn't save money, when everybody else's grandparents did. Iam not trying to be a jerk but...come on

 

[N1kawotg]

If everyone grandparents saved on their own, then why in the world do we fight over social security. Its not to let retirees enjoy Vegas, but to give them the necessary funds to survive which is most surely needed. Back then if you worked for the same co. for 30 years you got x amount of money. Tell me one person back then who wouldn't think that was ironclad. Looking back is always 20/20. But once again this debate is about AGE- not how one saved, lost pensions, doesn't get to upgrade etc. Do we let 90 year olds fly?, we do now just not the airlines. However matching the age with medicare and social security, is fair and needed.

This rule has been debating for years. It is nothing new, so most of us knew this would be an issue. In fact, a few years ago the FAA? asked SWA to go to 62 as a test program from what I hear. It almost was voted in by the pilots. So I believe the gov't is ready to hear valid arguments for both sides not greedy ones.

 

[tubelcane]

klhoard,

The Roth IRA thing was meant for the younger crowd on this board. If you aren't eligible to contribute to IRA's there are other options. You can put your money into an annuity, you can buy stock, and mutual funds. Call Suze Orman I am sure she has more ideas. If you make too much money to contribute to an IRA there aren't a lot of people who are gonna feel sorry for you if you haven't saved anything you made. I was just trying to illustrate to the young cats and kittens who read this that if they save now, when they aren't taking in the big bucks, they will develop good habits . They will be on track to retire comfortably at 55 or 60, without a pension, social security, or depending on anyone but themselves. If you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it. I was just trying to pass on the good knowledge my dad gave me.

 

[MVSW]

If everyone grandparents saved on their own, then why in the world do we fight over social security. Its not to let retirees enjoy Vegas, but to give them the necessary funds to survive which is most surely needed. Back then if you worked for the same co. for 30 years you got x amount of money. Tell me one person back then who wouldn't think that was ironclad. Looking back is always 20/20. But once again this debate is about AGE- not how one saved, lost pensions, doesn't get to upgrade etc. Do we let 90 year olds fly?, we do now just not the airlines. However matching the age with medicare and social security, is fair and needed.

This rule has been debating for years. It is nothing new, so most of us knew this would be an issue. In fact, a few years ago the FAA? asked SWA to go to 62 as a test program from what I hear. It almost was voted in by the pilots. So I believe the gov't is ready to hear valid arguments for both sides not greedy ones.

That even makes my point even better!! NO they will not let you fly 121, but they can 91. Thats why i was saying that there has to be some age. We cant let pilots fly 121 until they fail a med. When they are 60, let them go fly 91.

 

[FlyingFish]

So your saying that if I was 90 years old and could still pass a checkride that I should be PIC of a jet with 500 PAX?? (LOL) With saying that, there has to be some age... weather its 60, 62,65... There is NO way we can let pilots fly until they fail a med.

Best of luck to you keeping your first class at 90, may we all age so gracefully.


DF

 

[AV8OR]

Did you mean to type the word "FAT" ?[/QUOTE

He he, no, what I meant by that was that our aging population, is generaly more fit than their former generations. Not reflected by some Budda Belly Cpts. to be sure but I meant "theoretically" more fit.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Did you mean to type the word "FAT" ?[/QUOTE

He he, no, what I meant by that was that our aging population, is generaly more fit than their former generations. Not reflected by some Budda Belly Cpts. to be sure but I meant "theoretically" more fit.

I'm pretty sure you meant FAT...LOL.

Aircraft Experience: DC-8, B727, Gulfstream, DA-10, IAJET, CITATION, ATR72/42
Flight Experience: CIVILIAN
Ratings: ATP, DA-10, IAJET, CITATION, FEX
Current Position: Gulfstream FO,DC-8FE
Total Time: 5500

Did you change jobs again????

 

[AV8OR]

I'm pretty sure you meant FAT...LOL.

Aircraft Experience: DC-8, B727, Gulfstream, DA-10, IAJET, CITATION, ATR72/42
Flight Experience: CIVILIAN
Ratings: ATP, DA-10, IAJET, CITATION, FEX
Current Position: Gulfstream FO,DC-8FE
Total Time: 5500

Did you change jobs again????

No, I didn't change jobs, what made you think that?

 

[Carl_Spackler]

how about making no limitations on retirement age, but everyone will have to get a REAL medical, ie JCAB? Just about anyone can get a medical these days. How may people are flying around this country right now that probably shoudn't have a medical? If the FAA required a stringent physical
most of us would probably be out of a job.

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On the financial side, it is my opinion that ALPA is and has been reactionary when it comes to retirement. They need to become proactive. Tell the new guys that pensions will most likely be a thing of the past and that YOU have to be responsible for your retirement. If ALPA educated every new hire on finincial planning and responsibility, you could retire from a regional a millionaire several times over.

 

[Purpledog]

To bad a survey wasn't done say, 10 years ago. I'd love to see if the percentage of pilots who wanted to see it changed was just as high as it is now. Funny how this epiphany of injustice has come on strong in the last couple of years.

Good point. We won, lets shoot this horse.

 

[Boeingman]

This issue would not even be coming up if ALPA had grown some balls and put a stop to the blatent rape of pensions.

I for one do not wish, nor have any desire to fly past 60. If ALPA continues their spineless defense of earned pensions then the very least they should do is to push for SS and medicare benefits at retirement. They also should work to repeal the lower payout from the PBGC due to forced retirement at 60.