Allegiant Post 3Q Profit!!!

[Dix-Bag]

If they did, what exerted such downward pressure on pilot wages?

High fuel prices, more competition, corporate greed, Alpa's failure to contain the RJ epedemic, mergers, a dwindling economy, industry wide losses following 9/11...

I don't think "Allegiant Air" is the reason pal... But direct your anger at others.. It's in your nature..

 

[Desert1]

And thinking like this is EXACTLY why we are our own worst enemies.

Might want to take a long look in the mirror, considering UAL's narrow-body 10 year Capt pay will be less than AAYs by this time next year. While you're there, you can throw in a couple other 'legacy carriers' (NWA and US Air) whose monolithic representation have negotiated away pay rates and benefits for years. Allegiant didn't do this, ALPA did, so please, enough already with the petty attacks. You want to assign blame, go after the highly compensated representatives you elected to look after your best interest. As I see it, you have every right to be angry: you should expect better performance from a group whose officers average $400k - $450K/yr.

Unlike the rest on the industry, Allegiant pay has consistently been on the way up, and will continue...because there's money on the table (makes sense, huh?). In fact, 11/09 will mark the 5th consecutive year of enhancements in pay (> 40%)and benefits.

You see, most AAY pilots are interested in the long-term profitability of the company. We're tired of the furloughs, lay offs, and costly empty promises. Which ALPA rep responded to killing the golden goose by saying "we don't want to kill it, we just want to choke it til it kicks out the last golden egg"? Wake up and smell the coffee, it's a new industry. Unlike the days of "highest pay til the last day" successful companies' employees will aim to miximize and share the PROFITABILITY. The rest will continue down the path of losses as they fail to let go of outdated and failed strategies (market share/dominance, labor vs. mgt, etc).

Unlike most of the rest of the industry, I believe it's safe to say most AAY pilots are quite pleased with the current status and direction of Allegiant. Oddly enough, as bad as we're currently portrayed, I'm told some of our resumes include members from the ranks of furloughed UAL drivers. We're hiring...

D1

 

[ualdriver]

OK, point by point......

High fuel prices caused legacy pilot wages to get dragged down to LCC wages 8 years ago as the original poster stated? Nope, definitely not buying that point. Check out spot prices for that time period. Was there some sort of spike that caused pilot wages to go down during that time period? Let me know if you need a link for the late 90's early 00's.

More competition is DEFINITELY in there. More competition from LCC's using low wages to undercut the competition. That I'll buy.

We're having industry wide losses now but there is no "extra" pressure to cut my wages (yet) to the extent they were cut in the early 00's. So I don't buy that point.

Corporate greed will always exist. It has existed since Orville and Wilbur. It exists now. That didn't cause the decreases we saw in the early 00's.

ALPA's failure to contain the RJ epedimic.......I don't buy that one either. If "ALPA'S failure to contain the RJ epedimic" was a point being used to explain the drastic reduction in legacy narrowbody flying, that's something I'd buy. But an actual drag down of 737 wages, for example, I don't think so. My management, for example, has never come to our negotiators and said that 737 pay rates have to come down X% because regional airline Y is paying their 50 seat guys less. I don't think they would ever come to us with something like that. They just park the 737 and replace it with a RJ. However, my management certainly came to us and said, "Hey UA pilots.....JetBlue is paying their A320 guys X and we're paying you guys X+50%+pension and that puts us in a difficult competitive position."

Industry wide losses since 9/11.....yeah, I would agree. It accelerated what was happening already as far as the damage the LCC's were doing to the legacies.

I'm not going to debate you Skybus, Allegiant, and VX guys about your wages anymore as I've already typed too much. The rationalization of such wages is deeply embedded in your respective cultures and I suspect will never change. We, as an industry, I guess just have to hope that guys like Daytonaflyer are in the miniority at your airline.

 

[Desert1]

OK, point by point......

High fuel prices caused legacy pilot wages to get dragged down to LCC wages 8 years ago as the original poster stated? Nope, definitely not buying that point. Check out spot prices for that time period. Was there some sort of spike that caused pilot wages to go down during that time period? Let me know if you need a link for the late 90's early 00's.

More competition is DEFINITELY in there. More competition from LCC's using low wages to undercut the competition. That I'll buy.

We're having industry wide losses now but there is no "extra" pressure to cut my wages (yet) to the extent they were cut in the early 00's. So I don't buy that point.

Corporate greed will always exist. It has existed since Orville and Wilbur. It exists now. That didn't cause the decreases we saw in the early 00's.

ALPA's failure to contain the RJ epedimic.......I don't buy that one either. If "ALPA'S failure to contain the RJ epedimic" was a point being used to explain the drastic reduction in legacy narrowbody flying, that's something I'd buy. But an actual drag down of 737 wages, for example, I don't think so. My management, for example, has never come to our negotiators and said that 737 pay rates have to come down X% because regional airline Y is paying their 50 seat guys less. I don't think they would ever come to us with something like that. They just park the 737 and replace it with a RJ. However, my management certainly came to us and said, "Hey UA pilots.....JetBlue is paying their A320 guys X and we're paying you guys X+50%+pension and that puts us in a difficult competitive position."

Industry wide losses since 9/11.....yeah, I would agree. It accelerated what was happening already as far as the damage the LCC's were doing to the legacies.

I'm not going to debate you Skybus, Allegiant, and VX guys about your wages anymore as I've already typed too much. The rationalization of such wages is deeply embedded in your respective cultures and I suspect will never change. We, as an industry, I guess just have to hope that guys like Daytonaflyer are in the miniority at your airline.

Those pesky LCC pilots...like Southwest, bringing down UALs 737 pay rates. Tsk,tsk. Yeah, let's blame them. Let's face it, SWA has been the scape-goat and laughing stock of the industry from their inception. But who's laughing now? They negotiated WITH the company when there were profits on the table (what a concept).

"I'm not going to debate you Skybus, allegiant, and VX guys about your wages anymore as I've already typed too much." First statement that's made sense so far UAL...couldn't agree more.

Go enjoy your life and lose the misplaced anger. Sincerest best wishes,

D1

 

[Desert1]

I guess I'll answer that question with a question. Why are airlines like UAL, NWA, DAL, etc., making 50% of what we were making 8 years ago? Did the "going rate" for pilot wages change during that time period? If they did, what exerted such downward pressure on pilot wages?

You are asking us?? Perhaps you should direct that question to your unprofitable management team whose outdated and failed practices/philosophies managed to squader away any chance of profitability. Better yet, ask your highly paid representatives at ALPA who quickly caved to management pressure while living high on the hog.

Better yet, here's a guess: perhaps the downward pressure came from those pesky LCCs competing head-to-head with UAL, DAL, and NWA's wide-body international flights? Southwest and Jetblue 747s...

 

[ualdriver]

Might want to take a long look in the mirror, considering UAL's narrow-body 10 year Capt pay will be less than AAYs by this time next year. While you're there, you can throw in a couple other 'legacy carriers' (NWA and US Air) whose monolithic representation have negotiated away pay rates and benefits for years.

You're not comparing your newly negotiated pilot contract to a years old contract of a bankrupt carrier that is about to have openers exchanged this spring, are you? And that's a source of Allegiant pilot pride when you couldn't even match those rates back when you got your latest contract?

And did you take our 15% B&C fund, adjust it for its tax deferred status, and add that to UA's hourly rates and then make the apples to apples comparison? And how about 1st and 2nd Captain pay rates? You failed to mention those? Do you honestly believe that ANY narrowbody Captain should earn wages that low under ANY circumstance? Even if the airline is "just starting out?" Even if you're "home every night?" Even if you have a "great relationship with management?"

Why do you think their "monolithic representation" were in the position they were in to negotiate away pay rates? How would you describe your representation if you describe mine as "monolithic?" Your "representation" if you call it that, can't even match UA rates and yet you criticize ALPA? That's rich. What is your "representation" doing about important issues like cabotage? Changes in the RLA? Future changes in FAR's like pilot rest rules? Just sit on the sidelines Desert and throw stones. We'll do the heavy lifting for you as obviously you and your pilot group are incapable or worse, unwilling, to do your own.

You see, here's the key difference between my arguments and the arguments of pilots at airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, and Virgin America and guys like you. You guys think it is OK to massively undercut the prevailing wage for the sake of "growth." Someday, you argue, you'll be able to earn a wage that resembles the going rate. But, until then, since you aren't taking pay cuts like the rest of the industry, it's OK because you're growing and making money unlike those ALPA carriers.

Guys like me saw, first hand, the damage low pilot wages can do to the industry. We saw that it starts with a low paying LCC here, another small LCC undercutting there, and the next thing you know, management teams are complaining that in order to compete, they need their employees to earn compensation packages that are similar to the "new" competition.

So Desert, I've heard all of your arguments before, and I'm just as concerned now as I was back then when Valujet and JetBlue pilots were telling me the same thing you're telling now. I guess the best we (as an industry) can hope for is that I end up being wrong.

 

[Ameriagle]

You're not comparing your newly negotiated pilot contract to a years old contract of a bankrupt carrier that is about to have openers exchanged this spring, are you? And that's a source of Allegiant pilot pride when you couldn't even match those rates back when you got your latest contract?

And did you take our 15% B&C fund, adjust it for its tax deferred status, and add that to UA's hourly rates and then make the apples to apples comparison? And how about 1st and 2nd Captain pay rates? You failed to mention those? Do you honestly believe that ANY narrowbody Captain should earn wages that low under ANY circumstance? Even if the airline is "just starting out?" Even if you're "home every night?" Even if you have a "great relationship with management?"

Why do you think their "monolithic representation" were in the position they were in to negotiate away pay rates?

You see, here's the key difference between my arguments and the arguments of pilots at airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, and Virgin America and guys like you. You guys think it is OK to massively undercut the prevailing wage for the sake of "growth." Someday, you argue, you'll be able to earn a wage that resembles the going rate. But, until then, since you aren't taking pay cuts like the rest of the industry, it's OK because you're growing and making money unlike those ALPA carriers.

Guys like me saw, first hand, the damage low pilot wages can do to the industry. We saw that it starts with a low paying LCC here, another small LCC undercutting there, and the next thing you know, management teams are complaining that in order to compete, they need their employees to earn compensation packages that are similar to the "new" competition.

So Desert, I've heard all of your arguments before, and I'm just as concerned now as I was when Valujet and JetBlue pilots were telling me the same thing you're telling me back then. I guess the best we (as an industry) can hope for is that I end up being wrong.

All you and your ALPA brothers and sisters had to do is say NO! Why is that an issue you refuse to address? I do not believe any Allegiant pilot has a vote on your ballot! Voting YES and blaming everyone else for your problems is why YOU have problems!

 

[ualdriver]

All you and your ALPA brothers and sisters had to do is say NO! Why is that an issue you refuse to address? I do not believe any Allegiant pilot has a vote on your ballot! Voting YES and blaming everyone else for your problems is why YOU have problems!

Let's address that point "I refuse to address."

Ameriagle, putting our differences aside, certainly you understand that there is no good reason why a MD-88 Captain at a growing, profitable airline should make 80 bucks an hour with no retirement. Certainly you can agree with that?

Certainly you can believe that the Allegiant pilot group has FAR SUPERIOR representation than ALPA. You guys tell me that all the time. Can we agree on those two points?

We'll get back the above two points in a minute....

So you asked me why didn't just ALPA say "no?" I've discussed my opinion on that subject at length, but the bottom line was that, in my opinion, it wouldn't have mattered. The legacy carriers at that time couldn't compete with LCC's with employees working at wages far below the prevailing wages at the time. It just wasn't going to happen. Labor, back then, were an airline's highest cost, airlines in general were marginally profitable, and from a competitive standpoint having labor costs that were 100%+ higher was a death sentence. The legacy carriers' labor groups (all of them) had a choice. Either adapt to the low cost environment or perish. To blame "bad management," or "ALPA," in my opinion, is off point. There's not much either can do faced with huge labor cost disadvantages in an airline environment. Even today.

The problem continues in that even if one legacy airline "fell on its sword" to keep wages up, the spiral would have continued. LCC's would have grown into the void left by the failed carrier, gotten stronger, then the next legacy domino would feel even more pressure to compete against these growing, now stronger LCC's. An ALPA or APA or whoever "sacrificial lamb" would have done little to stop the cancer.

But let's say you don't buy my arguments above as to why it wouldn't have made sense for us to "just say no" as you state. Maybe I can illustrate the point in a way that you can understand.

Reread my first several sentences. Maybe some pilots "didn't say no" for the same reasons the Allegiant pilots didn't just say no to your latest contract? Despite superior representation (in your group's opinion I'm sure), a growing airlne, a profitable airline, you still have no retirement and low wages. Why didn't YOU say no? Why didn't the Allegiant pilot group's superior representation deliver an industry standard contact? Why didn't the Allegiant pilot group collectively say "NO" to ANY part of its contract that was substandard to any ALPA contracts? Contracts that were negotiated by clueless, bloated, overpaid ALPA leaders? Certainly the Allegiant pilot group could have chose to lead by example and show us all how it's done.......but they chose not to. Why?

 

[Desert1]

UAL...and we thought u were done typing(??)

I tell u what, unlike you, I'm actually done. I've tried to respond to your 'logic' and have been dumped off the site...twice. Maybe it'll dump me out again, who knows...

What a collosal waste of time and energy it is trying to reason or convince the likes of you to stop blaming others for your own destiny. Have a nice life.

I'm now going to take my own advice and go out and enjoy my life. It's no wonder i seldom read or post on this site anymore. Pure drivel, mis-information, whining, and blaming.

You're right. It's all our fault, we're miserable scum and we're pulling down your beloved profession. We should all quit.

Happy now?

Seriously man, peace.

D1

 

[FO 4 Life]

You see, here's the key difference between my arguments and the arguments of pilots at airlines like Skybus, Allegiant, and Virgin America and guys like you. You guys think it is OK to massively undercut the prevailing wage for the sake of "growth." Someday, you argue, you'll be able to earn a wage that resembles the going rate. But, until then, since you aren't taking pay cuts like the rest of the industry, it's OK because you're growing and making money unlike those ALPA carriers.

While I'm sure UAL started with the best pay, benefits, etc. and didn't have to work at it for several years/contracts, shouldn't you be more concerned with the LCCs that actually overlap your routes? I haven't seen a UAL tail in PIE or SFB.