Allegiant 4Q results in 23.4% operating margin and $25 million share buyback

[Ameriagle]

Good luck with that plan. Sounds like us circa 2002.

I'm not sure a failed union drive is a better plan. Sounds like you think you should have done it in 2002......but you could not get the support in 2009! How has that worked out for your pilot group? There is a place and time, for everything. I think the effort was commendable....just not effective. If you are trying to garner the respect of your fellow aviatior by getting on FI and telling everyone you voted yes, maybe, if you are trying to make progress at your carrier then your message was loud and clear!

 

[Ameriagle]

I am worried about my pilot group. We're trying to negotiate pay raises while you guys who fly similar equipment are doing it for far less than our 8-year old contract rates. We're trying to get our FOs up to respectable rates, but your FOs top out at a rate that is less than our 3rd year rate. We're trying to bring our Captains up to something close SWA rates, while you top out at barely more than half that. You don't exist in a vacuum. Your rates affect everyone else.

So what you are saying is we should be pushing the union drive at Allegiant, yet you continue to tell us how ineffective yours is? You certainly weren't in marketing at Gulfstream!

 

[OurMoney1]

Why would we need a union drive? Our pilot advisory group (AAPAG) has gotten this pilot group a 40% increase in pay over the last 4 years. There's no reason to think they won't continue to make improvements to our pay and work rules as time goes on.

When we stop seeing improvements, we can talk about a union drive.

Allegiant pay scales represent a true assault on our profession. Any self respecting professional would seek more than what they have accepted. This AAPAG is humerous. When your making industry scraps its hard to not improve your hourly wage. Allegiant management has made sport of paying their people nothing and raking in healthy profits. Its wrong and represents all of our struggles to do better for ourselves and families.

 

[PCL_128]

So what you are saying is we should be pushing the union drive at Allegiant, yet you continue to tell us how ineffective yours is?

Are you kidding? Even with our contract that's been amendable for years, our payrates are still far superior to what you've got. Our pilots are demanding huge raises, and yet you're out there pretending that $59/hr is a reasonable wage for an MD-80 FO. So who is it that's ineffective?

 

[Mr Wu]

... Even with our contract that's been amendable for years... Our pilots are demanding huge raises... So who is it that's ineffective?

I think you answered your own question.

 

[chperplt]

Allegiant pay scales represent a true assault on our profession. Any self respecting professional would seek more than what they have accepted. This AAPAG is humerous. When your making industry scraps its hard to not improve your hourly wage. Allegiant management has made sport of paying their people nothing and raking in healthy profits. Its wrong and represents all of our struggles to do better for ourselves and families.

Not close to being correct....

 

[chperplt]

Are you kidding? Even with our contract that's been amendable for years, our payrates are still far superior to what you've got. Our pilots are demanding huge raises, and yet you're out there pretending that $59/hr is a reasonable wage for an MD-80 FO. So who is it that's ineffective?

Obviously you're the ineffective group. We (AAPAG) have received raises of 40% in the last few years, with continuing raises and PROFIT SHARING expected each year.

Are we still below where we need to be? Absolutely we are..

What your thick PFT heard can't wrap itself around is that we continue to make progress each year. You expect us to be stars overnight, and it doesn't work that way.

Spend your time and energy worrying about and working to fix your ailing company. Leave Allegiant to the Allegiant folks.

BTW... Does your union (or any union for that matter) have issues with the fact that you paid to get into this industry? I mean... If you really want to talk about "lowering the bar", wouldn't that be you when you wrote that $18,000 check for a Beech 1900 job? You were taking a job away from someone qualified to be there, and you were keeping pay down for everyone that wasn't willing to pay for their own job... Look in the mirror man... You're everything you're on here bitching about, and I mean EVERYTHING!

 

[PCL_128]

Obviously you're the ineffective group. We (AAPAG) have received raises of 40% in the last few years, with continuing raises and PROFIT SHARING expected each year.

Do you not find it pathetic that even after 40% raises you still make a fraction of what everyone else makes? That really says something for how horrible your payrates were before.

What your thick PFT heard can't wrap itself around is that we continue to make progress each year. You expect us to be stars overnight, and it doesn't work that way.

I don't expect you to be "stars" overnight, I just want you to become part of the solution. Join the labor movement and start working with the rest of your profession.

Spend your time and energy worrying about and working to fix your ailing company.

Ailing company? We're doing just fine. We should record record profits this year, actually.

BTW... Does your union (or any union for that matter) have issues with the fact that you paid to get into this industry? I mean... If you really want to talk about "lowering the bar", wouldn't that be you when you wrote that $18,000 check for a Beech 1900 job? You were taking a job away from someone qualified to be there, and you were keeping pay down for everyone that wasn't willing to pay for their own job... Look in the mirror man... You're everything you're on here bitching about, and I mean EVERYTHING!

I think it's pretty telling that you can't defend your position and instead resort to petty attacks about something that I did a decade ago and have long since said was a mistake. But if that's the best you can do, have at it.

 

[Ameriagle]

Are you kidding? Even with our contract that's been amendable for years, our payrates are still far superior to what you've got. Our pilots are demanding huge raises, and yet you're out there pretending that $59/hr is a reasonable wage for an MD-80 FO. So who is it that's ineffective?

You highlight my point beautifully, thanks! I am not defending what Allegiant pilots have, I am defending the progress Allegiant pilots (specifically AAPAG) have made and hopefully will continue to make! As to what you are demanding from management, I could give a a s**t. Despite your complete lack of credibility, what you DEMAND seems to have empowered you to open your mouth, however I think it has little to do with how effective your orginization has been. After all, you have said as much yourself!

 

[Hovernut]

Join the labor movement and start working with the rest of your profession.

Is that the same 'labor movement' that summarily forced my ALPA pilot group to pay a 'merger assessment fee' to possibly merge with another wholly-owned ALPA regional?

Is that the same 'labor movement' that signed off on two successive sub-standard contracts at Mesa? That 'labor movement' cost me my left seat job and the jobs of many at my carrier thanks to its continued blind eye turned at the whipsawing of regional carriers.

If Allegiant management and pilots can get along with one another reasonably, then they can forgo the likes of ALPA just like SWA, AA, UPS, FDX, USAir, etc.

It also looks like they treat their first year FOs much better than most Majors as far as pay goes.

 

[chperplt]

Do you not find it pathetic that even after 40% raises you still make a fraction of what everyone else makes? That really says something for how horrible your payrates were before.

Dude,

I made over 100K last year as a 4th year employee and I slept in a hotel room four or five times. I don't think I make a fraction of what everyone else makes at the end of the year when all is said and done.

There's no point in discussing this with you further.

I think it's pretty telling that you can't defend your position and instead resort to petty attacks about something that I did a decade ago and have long since said was a mistake. But if that's the best you can do, have at it.

I have defended my position just fine. You're simply hard of hearing and a one trick pony.

Since you can't get past the fact that we're a new company working out and improving our problems, I can't get past the fact that in my mind, you're no better than a scab for stealing the jobs of qualified people.

 

[PCL_128]

If Allegiant management and pilots can get along with one another reasonably, then they can forgo the likes of ALPA just like SWA, AA, UPS, FDX, USAir, etc.

First, FDX is ALPA. Second, I never said that Allegiant pilots necessarily needed ALPA, just a union in general. If they prefer independent, then great, but get something. Right now they only have a company committee that isn't recognized under the NMB. Every other carrier that you mentioned is unionized.

It also looks like they treat their first year FOs much better than most Majors as far as pay goes.

It gets pretty dang bad after first year, though.

 

[PCL_128]

Since you can't get past the fact that we're a new company working out and improving our problems

I understand that you're a new company, but that doesn't have anything to do with the need for a union. Every pilot needs a union, no matter how new their company is.

 

[chperplt]

I understand that you're a new company, but that doesn't have anything to do with the need for a union. Every pilot needs a union, no matter how new their company is.

In your opinion...

 

[Blue Dude]

I'm not sure a failed union drive is a better plan. Sounds like you think you should have done it in 2002......but you could not get the support in 2009! How has that worked out for your pilot group? There is a place and time, for everything. I think the effort was commendable....just not effective. If you are trying to garner the respect of your fellow aviatior by getting on FI and telling everyone you voted yes, maybe, if you are trying to make progress at your carrier then your message was loud and clear!

Actually, my message was a warning. My "sounds like JB in 2002" was a response to "we'll unionize when we need to". Obviously the JB union drive failed, and that *is* the warning. 67% of JB pilots either don't want to unionize or don't care, this in spite of not receiving meaningful pay, benefits and/or QOL improvements in years, "targeted" "raises" notwithstanding. Management is very, very good at seeming to look out for your interests without ever coughing up the $$$ required to make it happen. Don't think that just since you're happy now that you will remain so. Don't think also that you'll be able to do anything about it when the good feeling's gone but everyone around you is still making excuses for management's lack of meaningful action. The deck is very much stacked against you.

 

[Mr Wu]

Every pilot needs a union, no matter how new their company is.

Why?

And please give me something other than the rhetoric that ALPA spews. I can read that on their website.

 

[Mr Wu]

It gets pretty dang bad after first year, though.

You have Pinnacle in your screen name and you were obviously involved with ALPA in the years that you were there. What the f**k did you and ALPA do for their payscale compared to the other regionals?

 

[Ameriagle]

Actually, my message was a warning. My "sounds like JB in 2002" was a response to "we'll unionize when we need to". Obviously the JB union drive failed, and that *is* the warning. 67% of JB pilots either don't want to unionize or don't care, this in spite of not receiving meaningful pay, benefits and/or QOL improvements in years, "targeted" "raises" notwithstanding. Management is very, very good at seeming to look out for your interests without ever coughing up the $$$ required to make it happen. Don't think that just since you're happy now that you will remain so. Don't think also that you'll be able to do anything about it when the good feeling's gone but everyone around you is still making excuses for management's lack of meaningful action. The deck is very much stacked against you.

You make some valid points and you may be right. Time will tell. If at some time in the future there is a union drive at Allegiant, I hope there will only be one, that is the point I was trying to make! Any other result does nothing to support our cause, IMO!

 

[BRA]

Do you not find it pathetic that even after 40% raises you still make a fraction of what everyone else makes? That really says something for how horrible your payrates were before.


Didn't Allegiant start with an old short DC-9 out of fresno, no hope, and on the edge of bankruptcy until it went into bankruptcy? I think it then attempted to remake itself into what it is today right after 9/11. Shortly after that the Iraq war started in 2003.

 

[PCL_128]

Why?

And please give me something other than the rhetoric that ALPA spews. I can read that on their website.

Career protection. Anyone can slide off of a runway in the middle of winter. If it happens to you, wouldn't it be nice to know that a union is there to provide you attorneys, accident investigators, etc...? Take a look at the comments from Captain Sullenburger and FO Skiles about the support they received not only from their own union, but also from the other unions that they work with in CAPA.

What happens if you lose your medical? Wouldn't it be nice to know that your union has an aeromedical department that can get you your medical back in short order?

How 'bout discipline? Everyone gets in trouble at one point or another. You need an advocate for yourself instead of just hoping that the manager is going to be fair.

Unions aren't just about collective bargaining. In fact, that's just a small part of it.

 

[BEECH-SLAPPED]

It gets pretty dang bad after first year, though.

If memory serves, it got "pretty dang bad" for a bunch of your FO's late last year as well. They didn't seem to have a problem beating on our door for a job. I am happy that they were all recalled, though.

You know, about a decade ago I also got a BE1900 job. But I got this job on my own merit and for the first year, cleared a whopping $280 per week. Why was the pay so low? Because certain people down in FL were paying the company for the privilage of doing the exact same job.

So, you regret "renting" a BE1900 and then becoming "meat in the seat" for some poor unsuspecting Pinnacle CRJ captain? Well, good for you for admitting your mistake. But that doesn't necessarily qualify you to become ALPA's door-to-door salesman.

Nobody at Allegiant defends the pay. We know it's bad but it improves steadily every year. And if you're wondering what's taking us so long, please learn the history of the company that you fly for. Whether you want to admit it or not, your company and ours were founded and run by the same people. These people know how to make money, but they don't give the farm away either. Since you've been stalled for years, maybe you can appreciate what we're up against. Having a union in place, from my observation, would only drag everything out further.

 

[PCL_128]

You have Pinnacle in your screen name and you were obviously involved with ALPA in the years that you were there. What the f**k did you and ALPA do for their payscale compared to the other regionals?

I think you'll find that PCL's payscales improve a hell of a lot when they sign a new contract, probably within the year. When their current contract was signed in '99, their payrates were right in line with everyone else's. By comparison, look at the crap rates that Pinnacle management pays to the Colgan pilots. Far below industry standard. That's exactly what the PCL pilots would get if it weren't for ALPA. Now that the Colgan guys just voted in ALPA, they'll be able to bargain for improvements; something they haven't been able to ever do in the past.

 

[PCL_128]

But that doesn't necessarily qualify you to become ALPA's door-to-door salesman.

No, years of union work has qualified me for that. But to be clear, I'm not selling ALPA to you, I'm selling trade unionism. If you want to go independent first, then I'll support it 100%. I just want you to have something.

Since you've been stalled for years, maybe you can appreciate what we're up against.

I can definitely appreciate what you're up against, but you're not doing anything about it. Without a union in place, you have no true voice. A company committee is not a true voice. Only legally recognized collective bargaining will truly provide you with a voice.

 

[chperplt]

Career protection. Anyone can slide off of a runway in the middle of winter. If it happens to you, wouldn't it be nice to know that a union is there to provide you attorneys, accident investigators, etc...? Take a look at the comments from Captain Sullenburger and FO Skiles about the support they received not only from their own union, but also from the other unions that they work with in CAPA.

What happens if you lose your medical? Wouldn't it be nice to know that your union has an aeromedical department that can get you your medical back in short order?

How 'bout discipline? Everyone gets in trouble at one point or another. You need an advocate for yourself instead of just hoping that the manager is going to be fair.

Unions aren't just about collective bargaining. In fact, that's just a small part of it.

There is no better financial protection offered to a pilot group than what Allegiant offers its pilots...for free. Without going into detail, we've had pilots lose their medical, spend over a year on medical leave, not be able to fly ever again, and the company continues to pay them. We even had a guy get into a plane crash during ground school, and the company continued to pay him until he got his medical back.

Discipline... You really have to try to get fired here. Hell, you have to ask to get fired here... Our CP and DO have a loyalty to their pilots that even baffles me at times.

You may think unions are necessary, but there are many here that don't. At some point we may elect as a group to go that route, but we'll be losing just as much as we gain (if not more) when we do.

There's a lot more to a company than just it's basic pay rate. Our pay and work rules WILL get better as time goes on. Will your union ever get you the benefits we already have... for free??

 

[PCL_128]

There is no better financial protection offered to a pilot group than what Allegiant offers its pilots...for free. Without going into detail, we've had pilots lose their medical, spend over a year on medical leave, not be able to fly ever again, and the company continues to pay them. We even had a guy get into a plane crash during ground school, and the company continued to pay him until he got his medical back.

Sounds great, but it can be taken away at any time. Wouldn't you like to codify it in contract language?

Discipline... You really have to try to get fired here. Hell, you have to ask to get fired here... Our CP and DO have a loyalty to their pilots that even baffles me at times.

Again, something that can change at any time. Sure would be nice to have protection in place before you need it.

Will your union ever get you the benefits we already have... for free??

I would take my union protection over what you've got any day.

 

[Thug Life]

I am worried about my pilot group. We're trying to negotiate pay raises while you guys who fly similar equipment are doing it for far less than our 8-year old contract rates. We're trying to get our FOs up to respectable rates, but your FOs top out at a rate that is less than our 3rd year rate. We're trying to bring our Captains up to something close SWA rates, while you top out at barely more than half that. You don't exist in a vacuum. Your rates affect everyone else.

You should just shut your suck hole. You are a pay for training scum bag. Talk about dragging down the industry. You lead the way!!!!!!!!!!

 

[chperplt]

Sounds great, but it can be taken away at any time. Wouldn't you like to codify it in contract language?



Again, something that can change at any time. Sure would be nice to have protection in place before you need it.



I would take my union protection over what you've got any day.

Your union contract isn't worth the paper it's written on... How many grievances does your union presently have, and what's the average time for resolution? Once resolved, how quickly before another grievance is filed over the newly resolved grievance?

 

[Hovernut]

First, FDX is ALPA.

Isn't it more like you can be ALPA at FDX if you want to? I thought half of their pilot group was independent.

 

[PCL_128]

Your union contract isn't worth the paper it's written on...

That's news to me. There are certainly some issues that we have interpretation differences on, but the contract is pretty much adhered to as long as the pilot knows his contract and challenges scheduling when they try to violate it.

How many grievances does your union presently have, and what's the average time for resolution?

We have 70 grievances waiting for arbitration, but that's largely because we've had internal union issues over the past 18 months with recalls of the union leadership and such. System boards and arbitrations are moving forward now to clean out the backlog. I would estimate that the average time for resolution would be 12 months.

Once resolved, how quickly before another grievance is filed over the newly resolved grievance?

Usually not an issue.

 

[PCL_128]

Isn't it more like you can be ALPA at FDX if you want to? I thought half of their pilot group was independent.

No, FDX is an agency shop. You either join and pay dues or pay maintenance fees anyway. They used to have an independent union called the FPA, but they got rid of it and joined ALPA.