All-ATPs bashing

[Zak3056]

not quite, little boy.!

You're either talking to yourself, or have way too high an opinion of yourself.

cforst513
A/C Flown: C152, C172, C182, BE-76
Ratings: CMEL, CSEL
Curr Position: learnding me some flyin'
Total Time: 270ish

Dangerkitty
A/C Flown: DA-50EX, DA-900EX, LR-60, MD-80, B-727, B-737, EMB-145, EMB-120, ATR-42, ATR-72, BE-200, BE-90
Ratings: ATP, ATR-42, ATR-72, B-737, DA-50, DA-900, EMB-145, LR-60, Turbojet FE, Commercial Glider
Curr Position: DA-50EX Captain
Total Time: 7800

 

[Tram]

Your right, it's not the first time.. and to be honest, it pisses me off that ATP is "like that.."

However, what pisses me off more is when good pilots get lumped in..

You pointed out something - "especially if I signed them off." ATP has it's lemons.. every flight school does.. yours included.. your not immune..

 

[mudkow60]

Just to point out....

One does not get the ratings etc from ATP. An oral and flight with an FAA examiner is required. If someone was not up to par, so to speak, when he/she completed the ATP courses, the deficiencies would come out then.

I got my multi inst/commercial from ATP in Pensacola, FL and thought it was a great outfit.

Just my 1c worth...

 

[Metro752]

This is an odd thread, though to be honest, it seems like you are bashing ATP and trying to mix them in with Airman and DCA

 

[charter dog]

Good points made about judging the quality of a training program on the basis of one, or a few graduates. It should be obvious that these accelerated training programs exist only to allow pilots to attain new ratings in the shortest possible time. Not to teach you how to be a pilot or a teacher. They train only to pass the checkride per the PTS. The rest is up to the student.

My own experience in the areas of learning and teaching has shown that depth of learning depends greatly on how much time and effort is spent studying, practicing and thinking about any new skills, procedures or knowledge to be learned. This where quality instruction can do the most good. The standard can be set at the level it should be. Very little depth can be attained in a minimalist, accelerated course. That is the amount of time that has been paid for. So if a graduate of such a program displays weakness as a pilot or instuctor, I would be inclined toward the belief that this was more a reflection of the individual character and ability of the person than that of the company that provided the training. I am not referring to these 0 time to airline programs. A whole different thread!

I have personally flown with a number of pilots who went this route to pick up a rating or two. The quality of their flying and thinking was entirely dependent upon their personal work ethic, natural ability and depth/intensity of experience.

An in-depth, quality training program tends to develop or optimize the above qualities. A short, high intensity course is not for everyone. Proven self starters do best in this situation. They have put in the necessary work before they show up for training.

Unfortunately, too many people don't appreciate the value of putting in the work and just want it all now, without the work. When this is the case, it shows. There is nothing wrong with picking up a couple of ratings at these "quick and dirty" courses if you have put in the work on learning to be a pilot first. Same applies to type rating courses. You spend a couple of weeks familiarizing with the airplane and training to pass a checkride. The training center has little time to teach basics. But they will train you to pass the checkride by rote. Learning to be any good at it is up to you after you leave.

So the bottom line is that these places should be considered to be nothing more than what they are. A way for competent, motivated individuals to add a rating or two. The quality of the skills you leave with depends largely on the quality of the skills you came there with. Let's not kid ourselves, they are there only to get you through the checkride.The real learning takes place over the longer term, at least for those who care enough to trouble themselves. Most do once they see what the real standard is.

Best,

 

[pilotkppsg]

I did the CFI 2 week course at ATPs and I never worked there, stayed at a local 61 school w/ a bit of 141 stuff too and signed off over 40 guys (private, comm., multi, ifr, cfii, mei, and some others) w/ ONE bust in over 40 checkrides, i'd say that's a pretty good pass rate for someone who "cuts corners," currently, my profile should depict what i'm doing, so I guess i'd better quit go back and work at another P.61 flight school, b/c the CFI experience I gained as a result of "cutting corners" isn't good and can't be considered real experience.

 

[stonewall]

Got my ATP from All ATPs in P-cola, too. Nothing but good things to say. My instructor was about 23, but was prepared each day and very professional. No complaints. Of course, I made his job easy ;-)

 

[Dangerkitty]

I gotta tell ya....the arrogance demonstrated on this thread is emminating from posts other than mine and cforst's.

If having your experience means that I've gotta act like a pompous jerk, no thanks.

BTW, I think that your reaction is strong evidence that we've touched a nerve. Perhaps this thread isn't the first place you've heard the sentiments expressed about ATP?

We MUST have hit the nail pretty close to the head.

sqwkvfr,

For the most part I was just ribbing you a little. I have always found it a little humerous how folks will post the slight differences in aircraft that they have flown such as a PA-28-140 and a PA-28-160.

You were just a convenient target and I was having a little fun at your expense. If that upset you I am sorry.

But I do stand by my orginal point. To lump in a whole organization to being subpar just because a bad pilot came through is assinine. The ATP in ATL has always been top notch and has produced great resullts. Furthermore this school should not be lumped in with the others that are constantly bashed on this board. If you go to ATP you have to go through the exact same training and take the same checkrides that you would do anywhere else. I am sure the trianing is just as good if not better than Cforst's belowed Epic Aviation.

Furthermore Cforst is not even a CFI so he was not in the aircraft. He is bascially just repeating what a CFI told him. I find it very classless that an instructor would go into the Flight School and blab to everyone how bad a student is. To me it shows a lack of class no matter how bad the student is or was.

 

[mcjohn]

Where do you guys get that the CFI program is 30 days?! If that were the case I'd go there for that price. It's 2 weeks folks.

ATP loves me so much that they just sent me an email inviting me to come down to Jacksonville and interview with Pinnacle Airlines on May 15th. It's a complimentary interview BTW and it would give me a conditional offer of employment if I just give ATP $24,995 for their Airline Transition Program. Wow what a deal!!
I don't have to pay for the interview and I actually stand a chance of becoming a glamorous airline pilot for on $25k after I pass an interview!

Don't beleive me? Check it out:

On-Site Interviews with Pinnacle Airlines / Northwest Airlink

In just three weeks, Pinnacle Airlines (Northwest Airlink) will
interview a pool of ATP Instructors and Airline Transition Program
graduates on-site at ATP's headquarters in Jacksonville Beach, Florida.

Pinnacle will also interview a select number of pilots prior to their
enrollment in the Airline Transition Program for Conditional Offers of
Employment.

After successful completion of the interview, Pinnacle knows that
applicants will quickly gain a high level of proficiency and
standardization in ATP's 60-day Airline Transition Program. If you're
pursuing an airline job, have 350 hours total time, and would like to
know you're hired before investing $24,995, visit ATP's web site and
complete the application to be invited to 4 days of complimentary
interview and sim prep, and an interview with Pinnacle.

 

[shroomwell]

ATP's bread and butter used to be getting Military guys ATP's, now that times have changed they changed their focus, and are now just taking advantage of SJS.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Had a 30 day wonder come in for CFI/CFII standardization the other day. She did her CFI, CFII, and MEI in 30 days at All-ATPs. Went full scale on several approaches (including an ILS!!!) and actually had to get re-vectored by ATC at one point on an approach. And apparently they dont' teach the CFII's at ATPs about MDA's b/c she busted way through several of those.

Was it P.T. Barnum that said there's a sucker born every minute? Save your money and go to a real flight school.

UND sucks...ERAU sucks...ATP sucks..blahblah

yeah man, EPIC AVIATION in New Smyrna FL is where its at huh?

Lets find the thread where you have all pride for your flight school and its owner for wanting to send mechanics in a pick-up truck down the runway to yank the gear down on some POS trainer...

what was that? - "sucker born every minute" you say?

once you finish "learnin you some flyin" you might realize it does not matter one F'n bit where you learned how to fly.

 

[cforst513]

Well Cforst you sure are feeling saucy tonight.

Little boy you say? I was soloing airplanes when you were still trying to pee standing up. Not a very nice way to talk to someone with a difference of opinion and about 10 times the amount of aviation experience and knowledge that you have.

Furthermore, I received my Multi Engine rating from ATP in Atlanta back in the early 90's. It didn't seem to upset Continental Express nor American Airlines nor Delta Airlines about where I got my MEL because they all hired me. ATP was far from a rip off then and it's not a way to cut corners now. It's a very time compressed way to knock out three ratings in 30 days. Heck my Lear 60 type and DA-50EX type took less time.

Where did you get your MEL Cforst? Oh, thats right you dont have one.

Again I will ask you where did you get this information on this girl. You were not instructing her so I can only guess that the info is second hand.

I am not saying that she wasn't up to par, but that is like saying that since I flew with a few idiot Captains at AA then they all must be idiots. Quit lumping the skills of one girl to mean that all ATP grads are unqualified.

I have alot more time and experience than you do junior. Dont get into a pissing contest about which schools are good and bad. Short of PFT there are many good and bad ones out there. I think I know the difference between the two. As from what I have seen ATP has always been top notch.

not saucy -- sauced. my fault, kitty. i was imbibing last night, i didn't mean to come off as disrespectful. in fact, dont' ask me how i spelled stuff right....

i do have my CMEL and CSEL, tho barely 300 hours. i have a looooooooooong way to go in aviation. i just don't like hearing the horror stories about pilot factories. granted, i do tout my flight school, but it, by no means, is the best one out there, nor am i the best pilot. sorry for getting short w/ ya last night.

 

[NoahWerka]

Regardless where anyone came from, try to learn from their knowledge. So, they come from a "90 day wonder" course, they may have something to offer you never thought about. When the time comes, REMEMBER, "fly from the Right seat like you would want the Left Seat to fly if you were in the Left Seat. If you are in the Left Seat, fly like you like you would like want the Right Seat to fly if you were in the Right Seat". Be objective. Arroganace is a matter of perspective. You may be the one with the problem.

 

[Sig]

ATP's bread and butter used to be getting Military guys ATP's,

Clank! WRONGGGGuh...

Bread and butter will ALWAYS be the written test preps. Zero overhead (fuel?), huge profit. Just two a day at each location makes buttah.

 

[Dangerkitty]

not saucy -- sauced. my fault, kitty. i was imbibing last night, i didn't mean to come off as disrespectful. in fact, dont' ask me how i spelled stuff right....

i do have my CMEL and CSEL, tho barely 300 hours. i have a looooooooooong way to go in aviation. i just don't like hearing the horror stories about pilot factories. granted, i do tout my flight school, but it, by no means, is the best one out there, nor am i the best pilot. sorry for getting short w/ ya last night.

No sweat man. I figured you had been hitting the sauce a little. Your post just didn't seem like it was from you.

All flighschools have their plusses and minuses. All flight schools churn out some great pilots and some really weak ones. I flew with some really bad (and I mean so bad that I wouldn't sit in the back of their plane bad) Captains at AA. Does that mean that the whole airline is staffed with bad pilots? Hell no. 99.9% of the guys flying the line at AA are top notch.

Same goes for ATP. While the experience you saw might have been less than stellar I know that it is not of a reflection of ATP as a whole. As far as all the accelerated programs go, I think ATP has got to be the best. It is not a ticket factory, you do have to work hard for you ratings. In fact, probably the best GA instructor I ever had was an instructor at ATP. He had a talent for teaching that is not seen all that much by average instructors today.

Just a little advice: When you are a CFI dont talk bad about your students to other flight school employees, other students or other CFI's unless you feel like a safety issue is in order and someone else needs to step in. Gossiping about students to other folks will only come back and bite you in the butt years down the road. The bad student that you are teaching today might be helping you get a really stellar flying job tommorrow.