All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[CRJ200FO]

What you think of yourself and your path to the cockpit doesn't matter a tinkers sh1t to management. You are a gear monkey with a seniority number to them, and there are thousands more that want your job. THAT is the mindset that matters to us in our fight to improve and change things in this industry.

You're starting to prove my point for me. I realize that mgmt doesn't think anything of us. They view us as dispensable and as a necessary evil. That's why ALPA is so important. If the union didn't protect us, we would all be making $15k a year and being forced to fly unsafe equipment. ALPA forces mgmt to deal with us and not just replace us at a whim with someone that will accept a fraction of the pay. If you acknowledge that mgmt doesn't give a rat's @ss about us, then you must also acknowledge the importance of a union.

 

[C3P0]

ALPA Mathematics

Just for the stats people.

Not exact science just for thought.

Furloughed pilots from major. Lets say average salary $75K

$75K X 2% ALPA DUES = $1500 per year.

Estimated Furloughs 3000 pilots

3000 X $1500 = $4 500 000 in lost dues receivable.


Estimated regional pilots hired. 3000 for easy comparison.

Lets say first year average salary $22K
$22K X 2% ALPA DUES = $440 per year.

3000 X $440 = $1 320 000 in dues collected.

Not considering many apprentices do not pay dues their first year.

4.5million - 1.32 million = ($3 180 000) in lost dues.

These are conservative numbers not considering inflation. Someone with more economics background can factor in the supply demand table and figure out that demand for labour decreases as the cost increase. And demand for labour increases as cost decrease. There is a point in the middle that maximizes supply and demand. Which in this case may be we are headed in the industry. Economics is real whether it is legislated or found on the street.

I truely think the costs to ALPA is much greater then my conservative illustration. Just as the cost to the industry is much greater then reported financially.

This is not intended to blame ALPA.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Where ever did you get the idea that I don't like or support the union? I know that a union is vital to protecting our careers. I was just making the point that comparing yourself to a doctor, lawyer, candlestick maker is largely a waste of time because the only ones who see it that way are the pilots. If you want to call yourself a white collar professional, go ahead.

I don't care who I am compared to. Blue collar, white collar, professional, manual laborer, it doesn't matter to me.

I know what I do, I like what I do and could care less how it is labeled. It is still the best job around. It beats the hell out of hot mopping tar, doing other peoples taxes, or wearing a white coat and spending 10 years in school for the priviledge of stick my finger up some 52 year old mans a$$ looking for lumps on his colon.

My job is easy, mgt knows that and wants to take advantage of that fact and the reality that 1000s of others would do my job for less money and crappier work rules. That is where the union comes in. As they say, the only thing worse than having a union on the property...is not having one.

Again, great thread folks.

 

[Birdstrike]

I'm an ex-military rotary/C-12 guy so I don't have a dog in this hunt, other than being entertained and educated by all this great banter. But in my other life I'm a DAL Silver Medallion flyer and here's a take from a rider in the back:

- I averaged 12-15 trips annually in my jod with DoD. Now I'm with a DoD contractor and down to 2-4 for the past three years (before 9-11!). Why? You know why. It's an all around unpleasant experience and just isn't worth the hassle any more. Some things will just never be the way they were ever again.

-Teleconferencing technology is decent and getting better every day. We're now teleconferencing twice a week with up to 30 patches and we're bringing in more every month. This is displacing a hell of a lot of travel and will continue to. Sure, the economy will recover but I will never go back to flying 12+ trips a year when I don't have to with communications technology.

- We haven't run the numbers, but fractionals appears (to us) to be the way of the future. From what I understand, once you've tried it, you'll never go back to the cattle runs.

- There is no way no how that I would ever pay $500 for a ticket to fly coast to coast. I won't even pay $300. My target price is $100 each way and jet blue comes close, and on SWA between Oakland and BHM isn't a bad run for $196. I am extremely price sensitive and will find and fly with the best price. If I can't find it, I'll drive, doesn't matter how far. The 2002 Ody comes with a DVD screen and butt warmer. Welcome aboard.

- I get extremely nervous when I see someone who is barely old enough to shave in the right seat. For that reason, I don't normally fly regionals if I can help it. So far, I can help it. There are pilots on this board with less than a thousand hours pontificating as if they have seen and done it all. That scares me and I wouldn't want to fly on their planes. This board is great place to learn...from those that have the experience. I want to hear and learn from them. Others would do well also to listen more and open their mouths less.

My take on this industry is that Nero is fiddling while Rome burns. It's nobody's fault, it's everybody's fault. greedy management, greedy pilots, nasty service, great service, more scope, less scope...ad nauseaum. Meanwhile, the public tries to sort it out and gets increasingly uneasy about the bad blood, unwillingness to compromise, and feeling that we're being taken for granted and will put up with just about anything. Thanks, but I'd rather drive.

My last point is that maybe there just doesn't need to be five major airlines....maybe the right answer is three or four. I don't begrudge anyone's ability to command top dollar as long as the market supports it. Right now it clearly doesn't...so somebody may need to fold up shop and go away so the stronger ones survive. I'm a taxpayer too and I don't want to subsidize any more failing ventures.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Birdstrike,

GREAT POST!!!!

Lost in all the hubub of the industry, is the voice of the folks that actually pay the bills. The customer.

They are talking, with their wallets. The only ones really listening are Airtran, SWA and JetBlue.

The flip side of that coin, however, is the "Anywhere to Everywhere with a steak dinner for $100" desires of the flying public won't pay the bills and that level of service is over.

In other words, you may get just peanuts, but for $100, nobody is going to listen while you cry about the service. Hence earlier statement about SWA and service with a smile.

Passenger realtions, employee realtions. There is a happy medium in there folks, airline management has to find it or there ride will just get rougher.

Birdstrike, again thanks for the insights.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Birdstrike, now that was the big picture. Great post.

 

[flint4xx]

Hmm...Last time I ran the numbers I calculated $195,000 straight pay when I upgrade in a three years. I can take my profit sharing, 401k, and stock option and retire whenever I want, even well before mandatory retirement if I choose. I never have to worry about the company not funding it.

Yeah, I work alot. But that is open to negotiation, plus I'm junior. I only got 18 days off in December. And now I get bored on flights longer than ninety minutes.

This is a blue collar job with white collar pay. We are LABOR.

Some of you are so ingorant it is comical. (You know who you are) Please keep it coming, I'm bored on my five days off.

I like my patriotic tie. I would trade it to fly a 757 though...

 

[goldentrout]

Flint

Your post says it all.

You're non-ALPA. You'll soon be making close to 200,000/year. You get 18 or so days off a month. Making 200,000 a year, you feel you can fund your own retirement, but you still get a profit shareand an ESOP that's actually worth something.

I guess it goes to show ALPA is not necessary to have a great ariline job at a profitable company with good benefits and wages.

An airline union helps us all. ALPA has certainly done some good for us all.

However, in my opinion, as far as wages and benefits are concerned, ALPA is primarily concerned about preserving the status quo for the top quarter of the list, and to heck with the rest of the list...or the rest of the company for that matter.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

A good economy certainly helps the piloting profession. But this isn't exactly as simple as that. If management had their way we would see Air Zimbabwe fly LGA-ORD with a "Star Alliance" logo on the aircraft and the pilots making $20/hour. That would certainly be profitable for the shareholders, but beneficial for the profession?

Unions are necessary to achieve balance.

I have to laugh when corporate pilots say mainline pilots are overpaid. (A little envy anyone?)

Some of us vote Democrat for personal interests (our job) and genuine belief that their platform is best for the majority of Americans (Breaking news: Not all airline pilots are conservative!)

TurboS7 is a scab

FOX News is far from fair and balanced.

And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[F18-FDX]

Great discussion, and what was the original subject? To stray from it for an instant, I had to jump in after Birdstrike´s post. He seems to be right on target, I´ve personally seen it, and this happens to be another reason FedEx is doing so well. Business travellers are simply not going for the old business model of paying out the @ss to travel. They FedEx the documents they need and then teleconference the meeting. It will be interesting to see where the pendulum finally settles after swinging to the extremes of pre and post 9-11.

That said, a level playing field is required in good times and bad and we have all seen how quickly times can change. So...If you don´t support the new legislation, please get involved.

 

[goldentrout]

F18

Please define a level playing field.

To me, after reading the legislation, it seems that

1. Each side comes to the table with a final offer

2. Each side gets a member of the board, and has the right to concur on the other members of the board

3. The board must take into account the contracts of similar carriers (I don't see DAL or UAL poilots working for $20/hr). Otherwise, it could probably be successfully challenged in court per section 9

"JUDICIAL REVIEW- At the request of either party to the dispute, a final order of the Secretary under this subsection is subject to review by the court of appeals under section 46110 of this title. "

4. Each side has a grievance process through the secretary of transportation, or the court system

Sounds fair to me. I guess if it passes, we'll no longer be able to hold the company, all it's employees and customers hostage under the threat of financial ruin, and we'll have to resolve our disputes by negotation or in court.

This is what happens when unions start to abuse their power.

I think the union has way too much power. Basically, if we don't get what we want, we strike. The company is financially devastated, thousands of workers lose their jobs, the local economy, and possibly the national economy is severly damaged, and customers do not get the product they paid for.

That's way too much power for an employee group. Our union is no longer fighting for the "poor, overworked, underpaid laborer being exploited by the big, bad capitalists."

I think S1327 levels the playing field. Let's have some neutral arbritrators decide what's fair based on sound market economics...not the top part of the seniority list looking for "max pay to the last day."

 

[Boeingman]

I will not have a logical debate with scumbags like Turbo because there is no reasoning with them. They only care about themselves, and are willing to stab anybody in the back to get aheah in their careers.

This coming from someone who PFT'd at Gulfstream?

You're a real piece of work.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Hey CRJ,

Next time you're in the southwest, give me a call and we'll discuss our differences over a beer....oh wait, unregard, how about Peter Piper Pizza?

 

[enigma]

Darnnearajet.

You're darn near the point with your AirZimbabwe comment. However, stopping this bill and maintaining the status quo on bargaining won't do much to prevent the AirZimbabwe problem. Aviation Week just wrote about a recent European Court ruling that could dramatically affect bilateral agreements. Bad things could be just around the corner.

As far as the proposed arbitration bill, I'm all for it. Whether we want to acknowledge it or not, times they are a changin, and we may have to accept some of those changes. At least they aren't proposing to totally outlaw unions, just the negotiation style.

Goldentrout,

Right on.

regards,
8N