All Airline Pilots MUST READ

[CRJ200FO]

Who did he SCAB against? How did you find out? Not doubting you, just curious....

He admitted it on this message board about six months ago. If you search for the old PFT threads of about that time you can find his coming out. To the best of my knowledge he has never stated what airline he scabbed at. Not that it really matters.

 

[prodigal]

The Big Picture

Beechnut, your point #1 hit the nail right on the head. BTW, the greater good of the nation IS our best interest, too. Sadly, too many are blinded by their own narrow self interests to understand this.
Goldentrout also has it right in that a strong economy is the best thing for our industry and for all industries and jobs for that matter.
Dualrated, you are very wrong. What you fail to factor into the equation is the simple law of supply and demand as it relates to the # of pilots competing for the available jobs. No union in the world will overcome market forces for long. The market will shape the industry, not the other way around. This is so basic it amazes me how few people grasp the concept. Go out and run your own business for a few years and then let me know what you think. Bad economy=low/no profits=businesses cut costs=job losses. Even our illustrious profession is not immune from these basic laws.

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Thank you all for such entertaining reading. We have a dude telling us that SWA pilots are a disgrace to the profession another couple dudes calling someone else a scab simply because (from my estimation) he doesn't share their view.

So tell me, all knowing people, how is SWA a disgrace to the industry? Could it be that they have figured out how to provide a pretty good service that their customers like with loyal, happy employees and still be able to make a profit when the economy isn't so great? Too bad United, Delta or American couldn't figure out how to do that. Or could it be that ALPA is just stinging because the strongest passenger airline in the industry doesn't generate any union dues for them? Or could it be that SWA employees actually like their management which makes those held hostage by ALPA a little jealous? Or maybe all the furloughee's are just upset that all the SWA pilots they made fun of a couple years ago ALL STILL HAVE THEIR JOBS!!!! Maybe you'll see one at the bank when you're cashing your unemployment check. Don't bother him too much though, he's got a lot of papers to sign to buy your foreclosed house.

Keep posting those enlightening, yet comical posts. It really is great entertainment.

 

[CRJ200FO]

CRJ200

First off...I stand corrected...AMR pliots are not ALPA.

You said

"SWA is filled with pilots that are willing to accept an abysmal contract just so they can tell jokes over the PA and wear a funny looking tie. SWA is a disgrace to the profession. (flame away)"

Please explain?????/

1. Does Southwest have a worse safety record than any of the other major airlines?
2. Are SWA airlines pilots any less qualified than any of the other airlines?
3. Abysmal contract????
a. SWA 737 Capt tops out at about 150,000 a year. After the 1 Dec 2002 18% paycut, a UAL 737 Capt will top out around 160,000/year.
b. No B-fund at Southwest, but in 1999 they got a 14.5% profit share...for a top Captain, that was about $21,000. That about makes up for the B-fund.
c. I'll grant you SWA gets a couple days less off a month
d. up to about 18yrs seniority, vacation is about the same
e. per diem is about the same (actually a nickle higher at SWA)
f. duty and trip rigs are comparable
g. SWA = 7.11 hrs sick leave per month, UAL = 6 hrs per
month
h. company matches 100% of first 7.3% of 401K at SWA, no
401 K match at UAL
i. 10% discount for ESOP at SWA...no ESOP at UAL

I think the word abysmal is a little overstated...and remember...SWA has never furloughed...SWA is making money...SWA has hired and will hire while all the others are furloughing...SWA is buying planes...all others are parking planes and deferring orders

...maybe those guys at SWA got a good thing over there from which ALPA could learn something...i.e. you have to work with management to come up with a plan where costs will match revenue...not a plan that enriches the top of the seniority list and financially cripples the company every 5-10 years, causing thousands to lose their jobs. In good times everyone benefits (profit sharing as at SWA). In bad times, wages/benefits are in line with revenue so the company can at least break even or make a small profit (as at SWA).

It's just basic economics 101 and I just don't understand why unions are willing to cripple their companies with outrageous demands...unless it's more about the people in power wanting to please their members to retain power...rather than what's best for the company as a whole...but that would mean unions are more intestested in political power than the welfare of their company...that couldn't be true, could it?

...let's ask that question to the American steel workers...if you can still find one out there somewhere.

I'll admit that the word abysmal was probably hyperbole, but let's look at a couple of items here:

Pay: The concessions at UAL are only temporary. UAL pilot pay will be back to old levels in 5 years. And as you admitted, even after a 18 percent pay cut, UAL pilots still make more than SWA pilots. If you do the math, you'll find out that SWA pilots would need to get a 26 percent pay raise just to match what UAL pilots are making pre-concessions. And let's not forget that Delta pays even higher than UAL. Max pay for a 737 CA at DAL is about 190k a year. There are no concessions planned at DAL.

Profit sharing: According to my most recent info, profit sharing is gone for SWA pilots starting in '04. They will go back to base pay. And I think if you research it a little better you will find that ESOP is alive and well at UAL. There have been dozens of articles about it in newspapers across the nation for the last few months. Look it up.

Days off: You're right that they have less days off. But they also have many legs a day, very short turns, and fly alot of the same routes that turboprops fly. It's not easy flying. Certainly not the kind of work I want to be doing when I retire. I want to leave that kind of flying behind when I leave the regionals, and most pilots I talk to agree.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Could it be that they have figured out how to provide a pretty good service that their customers like with loyal, happy employees and still be able to make a profit when the economy isn't so great?

What good service are you referring to? I've never met anyone that has received good service on a SWA flight. The only reason people continue to go to SWA is because they will sell tickets for unreasonably low prices. Don't delude yourself into thinking that people fly on SWA for good service. Explain to me how SWA provides better service than the real majors.

 

[AlphEcho]

It's not easy flying. Certainly not the kind of work I want to be doing when I retire. I want to leave that kind of flying behind when I leave the regionals,

Without some common sense by the unions in achieving their goals you and I both won't leave the regionals ANY time soon. What's the point of achieving these unbelievable contracts if you have to give half of it back in concessions a couple years later? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Not to mention hundreds of your fellow pilots having to hit the street... I'm still waiting for that logical argument...

 

[CRJ200FO]

Without some common sense by the unions in achieving their goals you and I both won't leave the regionals ANY time soon. What's the point of achieving these unbelievable contracts if you have to give half of it back in concessions a couple years later? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Not to mention hundreds of your fellow pilots having to hit the street... I'm still waiting for that logical argument...

Concessions are not always made. I can't remember the last time DAL made concessions. A strong pilot group doesn't have to. DAL secured the best contract in the industry and still has it. Yes, DAL pilots are on the street for the time being, but many furloughed DAL pilots will tell you that they would rather be furloughed for now than to give in to radical concessions and be off furlough. Wouldn't you want to come back to a job worth having?

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Explain to me how SWA provides better service than the real majors.

I'd be happy to explain as soon as you show me where I said SWA provides "better" service.

In the meantime, you might want to get out one of your old elementary school reading books and refine your skills.

 

[B1900DFO]

Alpha Echo,
Don't blame alpa and their help in negotiating industry leading contracts for the furlough situation at the majors. I think it is safe to say that AMR pilots make quite a bit less than Dal, and they are not even Alpa, yet they have pilots on furlough. What about Hawaiian who anounced plans of companywide furloughs. I could be wrong but I believe that Hal 767 captains make approx. 150K/year, that is a full 100k less than a comparable Ual, Dal pilot. What about Kitty Hawk? I think we can all agree that they don't make much, yet they furloughed. I don't think we should point fingers at the various mainline groups for not bending over and giving up the farm just so a few of us might get hired sooner. Nobody owes you a job.

I think what we have is a climate where full service airlines are being bled dry regardless of their pilot's salaries.
If you have so much animosity for Alpa, do us all a favor and don't send your resume to any Alpa carriers. We could use a little less competition in this industry.

One last thing. I'm sure many will disagree but I once heard somebody say that in the end concessions rarely help an airline. Look at Eastern, TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, US Air (still losing money hand over fist). If you don't give concessions it forces management to actually manage the airline to profitability. Something to think about.

 

[CRJ200FO]

One last thing. I'm sure many will disagree but I once heard somebody say that in the end concessions rarely help an airline. Look at Eastern, TWA, Pan Am, Braniff, US Air (still losing money hand over fist). If you don't give concessions it forces management to actually manage the airline to profitability. Something to think about.

Quite possibly the smartest thing ever said on this message board. Concessions do nothing to help an airline if mgmt doesn't change the way they do business.

 

[goldentrout]

Amen to prodigal who says:

"No union in the world will overcome market forces for long. The market will shape the industry, not the other way around. This is so basic it amazes me how few people grasp the concept. Go out and run your own business for a few years and then let me know what you think. Bad economy=low/no profits=businesses cut costs=job losses. Even our illustrious profession is not immune from these basic laws."

It's just as simple as this.

Today I went to Target. There were cases of 24 bottled waters.
One of the more well known bottled water company's with a big name had a case for $5.99. Some new water company had a case of water for $4.59. I bought the last case of new company water at $4.59.

The shelves were still full of well known's cases of bottled water at $5.99.

As long as SWA is providing safe, reliable transportation (and Jet Blue, and Frontier, and AirTran for that matter), people will pick those airlines most of the time because for most people, price is the most important factor when buying airline tickets.

Sure, some (not many) will pay 10-20% more for the service at UAL/DAL/NWA/AMR, but as the market is pointing out...not enough to make that a viable business model.

Just as with the bottled water at Target, basic economic principle will apply to the airlines too...the consumer will pay the lowest price available for the product that meets his/her needs.

I don't mean to be condescending, but it's just such basic market capitalism...I don't understand why more of us who are obviously educated, intelligent people don't get it.

If I'm the MEC at DAL/UAL/NWA, I'm looking at the 70-90 seat RJs and thinking "we need those on our property...cause that's the way of the future...let's get them...negotiate some decent pay rates...and get our guys their jobs back...and some growth too!"

Instead (and you can read it on the ALPA website), Duane's strategy is to get SWA into ALPA...thinking then ALPA will negotiate some huge pay and benefit raise for those guys...which will force SWA to raise ticket prices.

I like the market based strategy best...because history has proven time and again...whether it's steel...or cars...or shoes...or whatever...the business which provides the desired product at the lowest price will win the game.

 

[TurboS7]

CRJ200FO,
Yes you are right. People like you motivate me to call McCain and encourage him to press on. Yes, get rid of all the RLA contracts and get on to something bigger and better. I have nothing to loose, I am a SCAB, so I might as well ruin it for the rest of you'll and be the totoal trash that you guys claim that I am. Enjoy the flying while you have it.I see you are an FO, enjoy sitting there for a while too.

 

[ShawnC]

Sure the pay is higher at UAL and other airlines, but that doesn't help much when your unemployed because the airline can't afford to pay you.

 

[dualrated]

No union in the world will overcome market forces for long

That's the point of this thread. The passage of S.1347 will eliminate any market forces. Your pay will be subject to strict, binding federal statutes. Don't you find it ironic that two republicans are introducing legislation to further regulate an industry? This is more regulation, more federal control and manipulation of the free market!

 

[CRJ200FO]

The beginning of the end is comming for SWA.

We can only hope.

 

[abxaviator]

CRJ200,
You said you don't know of a time when DAL ALPA has made concessions. You have only to look at their previous contract to find it. After they signed the concessionary contract, DAL mgmt. gave all the other employees raises. Alpa , I believe sued or at least tried to renegotiate to no avail. They made large concessions and fought hard to get the UAL+ contract they now have.

 

[goldentrout]

Deftone45075

Sir

I really think you need to rethink your comment about SWA being a startup. When you make comments like that, it hurts your credibility.

1. SWA has been in business for 30 yrs...and made a profit every year.
2. They have 370 aircraft, 35,000 employees, 2,800 flights/day.
3. They are a fortune 500 company.
4. From the SWA webpage "Southwest Airlines has been named a charter member of the International Airline Passengers Association's Honor Roll of Airlines among the World's Safest Airlines. Southwest also has been recognized as one of the world's safest airlines by Conde Nast Traveler. "
5. Also from the webpage "FORTUNE has consistently recognized Southwest Airlines in its annual survey of corporate reputations. Among airlines, Southwest came out on top as the most admired airline in the world for 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2000. Among all industries, FORTUNE has listed Southwest as one of the most admired companies in the world, year after year.
Since 1997, FORTUNE has ranked Southwest Airlines in the top five of the Best Companies to Work For in America. Southwest ranked first in 1997 and 1998, second in 1999, and fourth in 2000. Southwest chose not to participate in 2001. "

For those of you who think SWA is a "startup" that will be going by the wayside here shortly...I'd think again.

CRJ200

What's this about concessions not doing anygood?

Maybe UAL guys can correct me on when exactly they took a concessionary contract, but...

1. 1994-- All UAL unions took a concessionary contract...and UAL made money until 2000 when...
2. UAL pilots got their contract in Oct 2000. UAL lost 124,000,000 in the 4th quarter of 2000, and has been losing money ever since.

Now pilot wages are not the industry's only problems...but when employee wages are 38% of airline overhead...there's no doubt that the pilots, mechanics, and FAs all together have a big effect on airline profitability.

Things have changed since the days of Lorenzo...low cost carriers and RJs have (and will) totally revolution the industry. ALPA can either be proactive and figure how to take advantage of these inevitable changes, or ALPA will become less and less of a force in wage and benefit issues. We cannot legislate jobs for ourselves in Congress, because market forces will always be the driving force in the airline industry.

As we used to say in the military...lead, follow, or get out of the way.

 

[goldentrout]

FYI

If you want to go from Las Vegas to Albany, NY next week, SWA will do it for about $300...and that's a totally refundable, change it anytime fare.

CAL will do it for about $525...of course that's a totally non-refundable ticket.

All the others want $600 or more...all non-refundable tickets.

It's just so simple...SWA offers the required product at the most reasonable price, ergo the consumer picks their product over similar, higher priced products from their competitors.

Those who think that somehow ALPA or the other airline managers are going to get SWA to give up their competitive edge and start charging higher prices are living in a fantasy world.

Why would SWA give up the competive edge of a business model that has given them 30 years of straight profitability, and made them a Fortune 500 company?????????????????

If this is ALPA's strategy (and it is), we're all in big trouble.

 

[Airline Pilot27]

Turbo S7wrote:
"CRJ200FO,
Yes you are right. People like you motivate me to call McCain and encourage him to press on. Yes, get rid of all the RLA contracts and get on to something bigger and better. I have nothing to loose, I am a SCAB, so I might as well ruin it for the rest of you'll and be the totoal trash that you guys claim that I am. Enjoy the flying while you have it.I see you are an FO, enjoy sitting there for a while too."

What is your problem? Wasn't stabbing in the back your fellow EAL pilots enough? You're selfish actions and thoughts are examples of what is destroying our profession. Once a SCAB always a SCAB. It is better to just ignore you but I couldn't resist this time.

 

[goldentrout]

Deftone

You must be quite the gambler...since you're betting on the stupidity of many people.

1. The management at SWA has found a way to make money during the every econominc crisis in the last 30 years, while the rest of theindustry lost billions. SWA management would be incredibly stupid to agree to wage and benefits contracts that are not sustainable by revenue, and would wipe out their competitive procing edge.

2. The employees would be incredibly stupid to demand wages and benefits comparable to UAL/DAL. Much of the retirement of SWA employees is tied up in the ESOP stock plan. Additionally, they get a profit share, which was over $20,000 for a top Capt in 1999. No profits = no profit share.

However...I guess I must admit that employee greed and management incompetence has gotten the airlines where they are today...I just think the people at SWA have proven themselves to be smarter than that.


Also...what's makes you think that if SWA started charging DAL prices, there wouldn't be a SWA II. There's obviously a huge market for the SWA business model.