Alaska TA: what's in it for me?

[msmb]

Are you high?? This is not a fair contract. This will put me way behind. Inflation is about to go way up, Obama care is another wild card... This contract is below average on every level... This pilot group needs to get some balls and tell ALPA to start acting in OUR best interest. We need to REPLACE the entire MEC and NC. Clearly they have lost touch with the line pilots and their arrogance is unacceptable!!

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

BoxBoy,

This is a fair contract. We can all nit-pick it to death but the whole package is good. If we turn it down, we will regret it. Well I should say those of us who vote YES will regret it. Those who vote no will tell us how bad ALPA is, and enjoy their self impossed $50,000 plus pay cut as time marches on...

I got no skin in this as a Delta Puke....but this sentence is eerily familiar to the line DPN and DALPA were using to sell our deal. Just sayin....

 

[Mamma]

What a load of feces!!! This is NOT a fair contract. Check the CA-FO ratios out for years 1-5. Then look at their retirement. Lowest in industry. You keep looking at TOS comparisons but they don't add up with our years 1-5 FOs. They pay union dues and should be treated fairly.

 

[AK737FO]

Ocity - "Spoken like a true Arctic Eagle" - Why Thank You!

Ski Bum - I don't see the 10% to 20% less that you are talking about. The TA shows that our F/O's are within 1% or less of industry average. Now if year 1 to 5 pay is not to your liking, then you should have chosen a different profession. I sure didn't enjoy B-scale, but we all somehow got through it, knowing that better pay was coming. I can only suggest that you think long term, not just today.

msmb - inflation going up and obamacare is not really our companies fault now is it? This contract is not below average. Matter a fact, if you choose to add in your PBP you will find that on any given year, we just might be the highest paid 737 pilots in the nation. If we follow your plan, turn down the TA, replace the entire MEC and NC - how long do you think that will take? How long, under your plan to even get men back at the table to try to get more? 12 months? 18 months? 24 months? Your plan will probably cost me and my family about $70,000. How much will it cost you? That is not a plan. That's just not logical. No thanks.

 

[Mamma]

I'm not an FO affected by year 1-5. You said this was a fair contract...all I showed was it is not. Nice to see its cool for you to throw the younger guys under the bus so you get yours.

 

[fam62c]

Are you high?? This is not a fair contract. This will put me way behind. Inflation is about to go way up, Obama care is another wild card... This contract is below average on every level... This pilot group needs to get some balls and tell ALPA to start acting in OUR best interest. We need to REPLACE the entire MEC and NC. Clearly they have lost touch with the line pilots and their arrogance is unacceptable!!

And then what, you automatically get a better offer from the company?

 

[Mamma]

And then what, you automatically get a better offer from the company?

If the contract passes then they have not lost touch with the line pilot. A certain segment, yes. But if it passes, then they can say they did their job.

 

[Old School 737]

This is not a great deal ... Is it .. Ok ..I don't Think so ... Others might .. But This company has a history of not really doing exactly what they said they were going to do.... As nice and friendly as they seem now They could all be out tomorrow with new management and we need to get what we Deserve now... There's nothing stopping the company in year 3 saying that they are hurting and we need paycuts from you guys and we prob would do it ...what happened last time that happened ??? Anybody ??? .. but do you think it would work the other way ... Hell no if we came to them in three years and said hey we want a payraise before the five-year contract they would laugh their asses off...

 

[Ocity]

And then what, you automatically get a better offer from the company?

Are you so certain we won't? Set aside the Stockholm syndrome afflicted MEC and think through our options. The fa's are beyond pissed that they don't have a contract. Maybe we coordinate and organize with them to achieve compensation for all of our flight crews that aren't insulting.

The MEC scary show just posses me off. I'm not afraid of voicing my disapproval in a vote. IMO ALPA failed BIG TIME. The APA's contract will leave us in the dust in two years....they work for a BANKRUPT carrier.

 

[msmb]

If we vote this turd down AND act like a real pilot group the company would be back at the table in no time! Anything that makes them stop counting their money gets their attention real fast!

 

[Old School 737]

If we vote this turd down AND act like a real pilot group the company would be back at the table in no time! Anything that makes them stop counting their money gets their attention real fast!

Yes!! Stock dropping now .. Wait till 2 labor groups in mediation .. !!! Bill made more money on 2 days in March than I will ever make in my life .. On all our hard work making this company amazing profits and record stock price !! You guys remember that they are buying their own stock back??? How many mill is that this time ... I think they can afford scope and more pay...

 

[Ski Bum]

Ski Bum - I don't see the 10% to 20% less that you are talking about. The TA shows that our F/O's are within 1% or less of industry average.

AK737FO - For example...2nd year FO Pay at DAL $101 3rd year $118 with a 3% increase next year and the year after. SWA 2nd year $97 3rd year $107 and they are negotiating for more right now. UAL 2nd year $94 3rd year $109 with an 8.5% increase next year and 3% after that. Our 2nd year is $84 and 3rd year $99. That is where the 10% to 20% less comes from.

Please make sure you are reading the FAQs chart correctly, it is for TOS FOs. The only chart they provide that addresses anything but TOS is the vacation accrual chart and that is for a 6 year FO. Nothing about years 1-5.

Now if year 1 to 5 pay is not to your liking, then you should have chosen a different profession.

As far as my profession goes, I am not sure that I need to cut off my nose to spite my face just yet. I have invested quite a bit of my time and money into becoming a professional pilot. I am proud to work at Alaska and I enjoy the people I work beside. I am not out to "screw" the company and I don't resent management for being good at their job which then translates into a steady paycheck for me. Alaska has always had a good reputation and people have enjoyed working here. I knew full well what the payscale was when I signed up and I also knew that I was joining a union that would work diligently to try and improve that payscale toward industry averages...I assumed for all pilots. I am merely stating my dissatisfaction with the result of this TA.

I sure didn't enjoy B-scale, but we all somehow got through it, knowing that better pay was coming. I can only suggest that you think long term, not just today.

I am sure you didn't enjoy B scale. I know many people had to put up with it, but nobody should have to put up with it. The old adage "two wrongs don't make a right" comes to mind. You are basically telling me that B scale was not good and I should put up with the same crap because some day I will be a TOS pilot. Instead, I am suggesting that we should all be showing unity to improve everyone's hand to a "fair and equitable" level. That is the reason labor unions exist...to improve pay, benefits, and working conditions for its members...not senior members, all members.

 

[AKMD80GUY]

People want to talk money only, fine. I figure I've lost about $500K in pay only. Leaving all the QOL, retirement, work rules etc...that were yanked by Kasher and then contract 09 I'm way in the hole. Lets take a look, 5 years on B-Scale, 2 years making descent money then Kashtration. I went from $125-$86 per hour. Not to mention the guys that had to downgrade. We get about half that back in pay only however we end up F'ing our junior guys for their retirement.

Now as a nearly 13 year FO I'm looking at probably another 2 years in the right seat unless I want to commute to ANC, and that's a maybe. Thanks to age 65 and looking at the retirement page their are nearly 200 pilots that are still here that shouldn't be. Granted that isn't the company's fault but by my calculations I would be a Captain and most likely off reserve everywhere but SEA. That would put me in the mid 800's. My point is I'm tired of being F'd 6 ways to Sunday. If there was ever a time to get a little back for the guys and girls that move the jets it's now.

If this is such a great TA why is the union putting on the full court press trying to sell this thing. It should sell on its own merits instead of using fear to get the pilots to fall in line and vote for something that is not good. We came together after Kasher and voted that TA down overwhelmingly. This is even worse because now we are being sold a subpar bill if goods in good times. If y'all would like to move on to section 1 or the lack thereof I've got all day. Don't vote your jobs away. I'm willing to be parked but I don't think that's going to happen. Stand up for your careers for a change!

 

[Boxboy]

BoxBoy,
There are so many inaccuracies in your post - I wonder if you are reading the same TA that I am? It just goes to show that most people see and believe what they want. I bet you had your mind made up to vote no 6 months before this TA came out. I would bet that if they paid you $500 an hour as a 2nd year F/O, you would find a reason to beat your chest, howl at the moon and vote no.
This is a fair contract. We can all nit-pick it to death but the whole package is good. If we turn it down, we will regret it. Well I should say those of us who vote YES will regret it. Those who vote no will tell us how bad ALPA is, and enjoy their self impossed $50,000 plus pay cut as time marches on...

What exactly are you smokin' there? Must be some good stuff! If you are who I think you are, you were squealing like a stuck pig when a SEA guy went up to ANC and bumped you out of your seat. I remember you posting a whole lot fabricated ******************** on the ALPA forum. Yeah I get it.... You got yours! Well, the rest of us FOs don't. One question for you... if you were a FO looking at a 14 year upgrade, would you vote for this TA?
Btw, I've read the TA cover to cover 3 times, read all the FAQs, and listen to the road. There's is not a single thing in this TA to convince me to vote yes. If you had a fraction of a brain, you too would realize that.

 

[Boxboy]

Ocity - "Spoken like a true Arctic Eagle" - Why Thank You!

Ski Bum - I don't see the 10% to 20% less that you are talking about. The TA shows that our F/O's are within 1% or less of industry average. Now if year 1 to 5 pay is not to your liking, then you should have chosen a different profession. I sure didn't enjoy B-scale, but we all somehow got through it, knowing that better pay was coming. I can only suggest that you think long term, not just today.

msmb - inflation going up and obamacare is not really our companies fault now is it? This contract is not below average. Matter a fact, if you choose to add in your PBP you will find that on any given year, we just might be the highest paid 737 pilots in the nation. If we follow your plan, turn down the TA, replace the entire MEC and NC - how long do you think that will take? How long, under your plan to even get men back at the table to try to get more? 12 months? 18 months? 24 months? Your plan will probably cost me and my family about $70,000. How much will it cost you? That is not a plan. That's just not logical. No thanks.

You contradict yourself and like to cast the first stone. Your statement, "I can only suggest you think long term, not just today"... my exact point in regards to this TA. What exactly do you think the long term effect of this TA will be? We will be the laughing stock, if not already, of this industry. Record profits and this is the best we can do!?!? What ever happened to building "stepping stones" for other carriers to build on? We just destroyed those stepping stones and we're essentially going backwards. PBP??? UAL and DAL(?) receive PBP, and they will surpass our pay rate by next year so NO, we will not be the highest paid 737 drivers. Infact by 2016, we will be the lowest paid. Do the math yourself; it's just basic math even an arctic eagle can do. The pay rate slide that the union put up with the retirement plan factored in is somewhat bogus since a lot of the FOs are not covered by the A Plan.
As for you and the union's argument of "time value money", it's just a theory; it may or it may not take as long. Some of us are willing to fight instead of rolling over. Yeah I know... you got yours.

 

[flythere]

There is another side to this that the company just does not get, and that's the human side of this equation! They (management) seem so content with dividing the pilot group, giving the capt's a little more pay and protection and making a calculated decision to pay fo's less, knowing there isn't much we can do. And, to an extent, they are correct, there isn't much we could do, right now!

But, they seem to be forgetting that all of us will be upgrading at some point, and not all of us will forget the treatment!

Being hired post kashtration, I flew with some pretty bitter capt's, they had been screwed over pretty bad, and those were the guys that refused to lift a finger for anything if that boarding door was open! As long as that door was open, it wasn't his problem, it was the CSA's problem. If I tried to help out, he would politely stop me and say, "that's not our problem."

Being new then, and not having felt the pain of kashtration, I didn't get it!

Tell you what, I get it now!! Basically what management is saying to us f/o's is that we don't value you as much as we do our capt's, because we know they can have a much worse impact if they are unhappy! Therefore, sit your happy a$$es down and be glad we gave you something!!

I'm thinking there will be a whole-lot of pissed off, bitter f/o's who will someday be sitting in that left seat, telling the flight attendant to use that little pink phone if they have a problem!

I now understand why those guys were so pissed off back then, I'm starting to see the light!!!

 

[Mamma]

Don't get upset with the company. This is what they do. ALPA and the NC accepted their offer and gave us lame numbers to promote the offer. We are going to kick our own ass.

 

[Ocity]

Don't get upset with the company. This is what they do. ALPA and the NC accepted their offer and gave us lame numbers to promote the offer. We are going to kick our own ass.

Yep. I won't lift a finger against the company if this passes. However , I WILL support a card drive to throw the absolutely worthless union that just FKED me over off the face of the Earth. ALPA is toast at Delta, UAL will call next. I say we get ahead of the collapse and boot this parasite union off our property first.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

The TA is an absolute joke!!!! ALPA has fked the FOs. I'm ready to push back and start a card drive.

You are blaming the wrong guys, your MEC did you wrong. They sat in conference rooms collected flight pay sipped 35 year old scotch and plotted how to get more for themselves. While the average F/O played softball, hang glided, surfed, banged their F/A girlfriend or just watched TV instead of participating in their union process. If you are too busy to go to the meetings to make sure your interests are covered, don't worry, there is some who will look after their own interests. I could say punch one of your MEC members in the face, but the person most to blame is looking at you in the mirror every morning.

 

[Ocity]

You are blaming the wrong guys, your MEC did you wrong. They sat in conference rooms collected flight pay sipped 35 year old scotch and plotted how to get more for themselves. While the average F/O played softball, hang glided, surfed, banged their F/A girlfriend or just watched TV instead of participating in their union process. If you are too busy to go to the meetings to make sure your interests are covered, don't worry, there is some who will look after their own interests. I could say punch one of your MEC members in the face, but the person most to blame is looking at you in the mirror every morning.

GFY, You know nothing of my involvement in the union. I'd say disparaging half the pilots that work at one of the most successful airlines on the planet is just a bit arrogant of you. We pay for a union to fulfill their obligations to us, that alone buys me every right to say what I want about the quality of service I PAY FOR.