Alaska Airlines increases hiring minimums.

[ERJFO]

Exactly. Like most of the bros in my squadron that have YEARS of experience flying high performance aircraft and all of a sudden they are out of the picture. I think it's just a shame that they're gonna miss out on a lot of experience.

I think they would rather have someone from a "crew" airplane instead of someone coming out of an F-15 anyway. Why would you want someone who's done it all by themselfs to come be your F/O for 8 years... I wouldn't - I don't know one good reason an airline would hire a military guy out of a single seat fighter.

 

[Motive Flow]

I think they would rather have someone from a "crew" airplane instead of someone coming out of an F-15 anyway. Why would you want someone who's done it all by themselfs to come be your F/O for 8 years... I wouldn't - I don't know one good reason an airline would hire a military guy out of a single seat fighter.

INCOMING!!!!

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I think they would rather have someone from a "crew" airplane instead of someone coming out of an F-15 anyway. Why would you want someone who's done it all by themselfs to come be your F/O for 8 years... I wouldn't - I don't know one good reason an airline would hire a military guy out of a single seat fighter.

I'm bored so I'll respond to this tool. I'm a heavy dude, no fighter experience, but have flown the T-38/37. So.... this coming from a heavy guy won't come accross as arrogance versus coming from a fighter dude.

Most military pilots leave the service for QOL issues. No matter what they flew in the military, many of them choose to make a living flying airplanes because most pilots enjoy flying; that's why we go to work even after managment's continuous abuse ;-) A military pilot, regardless of their flying background, is more than capable of flying for the airlines. In no way am I being arrogan, but that is the fact. If you don't like it, than I'd say you have a serious inferiority complex.

Airline flying is no more than point A to point B flying. There are many reasons why an airline would hire a single seater, aka fighter pilot. For one thing, MOST of these guys finished near the top of their class (not all.... trust me I know). They go through a pretty intensive and competitive training course after getting their wings. Although they do not fly as much as say a heavy guy, but their 1.2s are all hands on, not to mention the complexity of the missions. So, to fly an instrument approach in the weather after an exhauting mission is like parking a car in your garage. A military trained pilot is also a known quantity. I'm sure you've heard of this before. The airlines know exactly what kind of training these guys received from uncle Sam. I'm guessing that when you say "single seat" vs. crew aircraft, you are implying that a "single seat" guy has no CRM experience. That is where pilots who have no clue regarding military aviation should keep their cake hole shut. What do you think formation flying is? As lead of a formation of multiple aircraft, you are the "captain" of the entire flight. You have to have the SA and CRM skills to lead and complete a mission safely and effectively. CRM is easier to exercise when both of the pilots are in the same cockpit.

I flew heavies out of choice and I'm no fighter wannabe, but I don't think one can truly appreciate being a fighter pilot until you've done it yourself. That goes for everything else, so until you've done it yourself, I'd suggest you choose your words carefully.

 

[Tarquinn]

God this topic drives me up the wall... Once a pilot is trained to proficiency at any particular airline, their background really becomes a moot point... It's all about attitude in my opinion. I came in at AS with a pure civilian background, with no jet time. After we had passed our sims, one of my classmates who flew B52's and I were comparing notes and laughing at how we both made the same mistakes. Two seperate and totally different backgrounds... and yet we were both new in the airplane, trained to the same standards, and got through training in the same amount of time. Once you have a certain amount of experience under your belt it really doesn't matter what you "used to do," as long as you're trainable and have a good attitude.

 

[Caveman]

God this topic drives me up the wall... Once a pilot is trained to proficiency at any particular airline, their background really becomes a moot point... It's all about attitude in my opinion. I came in at AS with a pure civilian background, with no jet time. After we had passed our sims, one of my classmates who flew B52's and I were comparing notes and laughing at how we both made the same mistakes. Two seperate and totally different backgrounds... and yet we were both new in the airplane, trained to the same standards, and got through training in the same amount of time. Once you have a certain amount of experience under your belt it really doesn't matter what you "used to do," as long as you're trainable and have a good attitude.

Well said.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I will have 1000 PIC Jet soon, and still be short of 3000 TT fixed-wing. There are a number of guys in that situation.

cliff
YIP

PS-I don't care what the mins are. Whoever owns/runs the airlines makes the rules, because they are in charge. That is life on earth. The only thing we can do is to keep trying. If you want to go there, keep flying 'til you meet the mins.

 

['72Gremlin]

G2B,

I'm with you man. If SWA or AA was to buy ALK, I'd just rather quit and go pick up a shovel and become a ditch-digger.

That's okay. I don't think SWA would want you. They just want your planes.

 

[kingair1]

Nicely said Tarquinn .

 

[mach none]

What is the minimum military committment right now, 10 years? That is 300 hours per year or 25 hours per month. I would think that even a single seat guy could accumulate that time.

 

[fandango]

3000 is too low. I would like to see most of the airlines be in the 5000 or better. You want a job there, get the time. There should be no expectation to be able to get a job at a "larger"or more desirable airline, just because your squadron buddy is there. There needs to be a set aside of this "entitlement" for either one.

But, Im also one of those wierdos who think you should have to have 1500 or more to be a flight instructor. Silly me.

As far as the dead horse issue of mil/civ issue,

The posts that point (above) to single seat having to do it all......etc etc there are alot of us that (were) single seat, too. There might have been another seat there, but its almost always empty. The single pilot, night freight dog has it hands down to the mil guys in this respect, if you want to compare apples to apples.

Also, the civ guy also doesnt need to close down half of Texas to go fly.

I dont see what the big deal is. There are guys that come through the door with good attitudes and good time, they should get hired. Not, wellllll,,,,we have hired our quota of civ guys now (or mil) we need to pull out lower qualified guys to make our numbers 50/50, or what ever it is for a peticular airline.

If this was done in almost eny other industry, Im sure there would be lawsuits over this kind of preferential treatment. Right?
:beer:

 

[ExAF]

Ditto

Nicely said Tarquinn .

Ditto

 

[Going2Baja]

Ditto ExAF Ditto....

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

What is the minimum military committment right now, 10 years? That is 300 hours per year or 25 hours per month. I would think that even a single seat guy could accumulate that time.

I don't know about the other services, but it's 10 years after wings in the Air Force. 25 hours/month in the fighter world is pretty high, IMO. It's more like 15-20 hours/month from talking to friends who fly them. Guys in the training command (RTU units) do better, I've heard. If you go to AETC flying white jets, definitely better but then again you'll work your a$$ off, literally. I definitely think military folks should get some sort of a conversion factor for their time (ie. .2 per sortie) since their flight time is from gears up to touchdown. SWA and some of the others do.

 

[bustinmins]

Careful, I just put on my nomex boxers....I'm ready for the flame and the pain!

So let me get this right, Youre saying the company is wrong because it has decided that it likes applicants with flight time? You're upset with that? Is that correct? May I ask, how are the guys with 2000 hours in 20 years of single- or multi-engine "Stick" time some how more qualified than guys with Yoke time? Hmmm? More qualified than someone who has spent the last 10 years slaving away at the regionals as a 121 CAPTAIN? More qualified than someone with 9000 hours with over 4000 hours of FAR 121 TURBINE PIC? More qualified than someone who chose B-52's, C-130's, P3's or KC-10's to develop experience in a crew environment rather than a single seat with a canon shell under it? Puhleeze! I'm all about being fair but don't bring that fighter pilot mentality into this house buddy. It just doesn't hold any water. I'll agree with the post above that people make the same mistakes in sims - regardless of your background. However, your decision to pursue a single seat vs a crew seat is now haunting you. I'm sorry the rules changed while you were midstream but some decisions are poor ones. Your decision to go single seat instead of crew is now a problem if you want to work for this carrier. That is how the game is played. Welcome to the Civy world my friend. Maybe you might want to look at another airline that will consider your time? Maybe SWA, FedEx or UPS? Why don't you just enjoy the retirement check that you've earned and start working for someone that will get you some more quantity time so that you can apply? Seems reasonable to me? Bueller? Bueller?

Additionally, not to pour salt into the wound but you might get on with Alaska only to have them bought then stuck on the bottom of someone else's seniority list. Why do you ask? Alaska is ripe for a buy right now. With the airlines beginning to consolidate, it is only a matter of time until someone buys Alaska and uses their own cash to purchase them. Seriously guys - concessionary contract, no debt, lots of cash = ripe for a buy! If someone is looking for a carrier to augment their route structure with a strong presence in the west, you're probably going to be singing a different tune on your commercials.

I stand ready to take the flames!

PS - I'm ex-military but on the enlisted side of the house. This isn't me getting back at your fighter mentality - it's just real world. Sorry.

 

[ExAF]

C'mon

Everybody knows civilians don't have nomex underwear! You have to be mil to get nomex long-johns and even those have cotton undies underneath! Get a grip! Boxers or Briefs...my wife wants to know.

 

[igneousy2]

Well said bustinmins...

If Alaska or any airline cared about "years of aviation experience" they would make that their minimums.

I am sorry you only got 15 hours a month...but you knew you were only getting 15 hours a month for the last 10 years...you knew you would be short on total time compared to other applicants when you got out, you should have done something about it. dee dee dee. While you were jocking around in your fighter your civilian competition started getting PIC Jet time. An ERJ isn't as high performance as an F-15 but it's just as fast as an MD-80 and that is all that matters. That was your edge.

What about the guys that have been sticking it out at American Eagle, Horizon, that have been flying 5-6 legs a day on many of the same routes Alaska or the other majors fly, have by now acquired 6000+ hours of total fixed wing flight time in jets with more ACTUAL INSTRUMENT time than the Total Time most fighter guys get in 10 years of flying. They have not had the seniority to upgrade since they were hired 7-8 years ago. 7-8 years ago they had been flight instructing, 10 years ago they started flight training at a 141 flight school. HUNDREDS of landings remembering to put there gear down WITHOUT a reminder from ATC! Why not have exceptions for them, why not let them have a CA Babysitting Time conversion for those legs when they were...babysitting. I am sure they all have 750+ PIC if you could log that. What about the guys that are smart enough to have college degrees but didn't have the financial means to get one!? You don't need a Bachelors in anything to fly an airplane? Why don't we have an exception for those guys? I know, what about guys that get too nervous when they interview? What about the guys that have poor fashion sense, they can't be expected to know how to dress properly for an interview! I know! What about stupid people!?

It appears that the problem you are having is that you have been used to working hard and being treated special because you deserved it. I will guess that because you were a fighter pilot if you were active duty you probably were at the top of your class in high school, Air Force Academy honor grad with a technical degree, were in the top of you initial flight training...bravo. That really is great. Are you sure you want to be an airline pilot? Everybody on this side is just a number...no special treatment. Nobody will really cares about your background except it just makes 3 hour legs go by quicker when you have something to talk about...that's the only reason we ask. At the end of the day, we are all just Airline Pilots.

If you don't get it out of your head that you are better than half the Captains you will be flying with just because of your fighter background, you will be in for many LONG months because you won't get along. You probably won't get past the interview because your feelings of entitlement will show. Most of the Airlines now have line pilots on the panel and the most important thing that gives an applicant a thumbs up or down with other pilots is if they think they could stand you for a whole month.

good luck

 

[michael707767]

Once you have a certain amount of experience under your belt it really doesn't matter what you "used to do," as long as you're trainable and have a good attitude.

Which is why I have always thought the airlines like hiring military pilots. It's not about the flying. Within reason we can all be trained to fly to the airlines standards. Beyond that what they are looking at goes beyond the flying. It's about a positive attitude, motivation, a drive to succeed. I came from the military and I'll admit some fighter pilots exhibit a bit too much of those qualities, but I assure you people don't end up in the cockpit of a fighter by sitting back and waiting for good things to come to them.

 

[Caveman]

The airlines have traditionally liked to hire military pilots because.....drum roll please.......the airlines were primarily full of ex-military pilots and they were the ones making the hiring decisions. IMO the degree requirement came about by default because most of the pilots getting hired were ex-mil officers that just happened to already have the degree. I'm convinced the military preferential hiring phenomenon has more to do with cronyism than it does merit. Mil or civ we tend to take care of our own. It has little to do with predjudice for or against a particular group. If I were responsible for hiring at any company for any position all else being equal I'd probably give the nod to a former Marine. I might even give him the job over another slightly more qualified candidate provided both were qualified. Why? I like looking out for other Marines. Nothng against the other guy. Where this mil vs civ debate breaks down is when we start trying to justify our subtle favoritism by suggesting that one group is more qualified than the other. We'd be better served if we just all admitted that we want our buddies or asociates to get hired instead of someone we have no connection with.

 

[saviboy]

It's kinda hard to have 1000 PIC in a jet and not have 3000 fixed wing, isnt it?

I have 2100 tt and 600 pic turbine.

sorry, just being a smart ass

 

[av8instyle]

Wow!

I don't even know where to begin.
I'm assuming that since I started this thread those last posts were for me. I'll just make it as simple as possible. Since neither of you have flown fighters and I have I guess that sorta qualifies me to say this:
Flying for the airlines is EASY. I flew for a commuter airline in ALASKA for years before even getting in the military. Let me just say that taking a 4 ship of vipers into the airspace to lead an opposed SAT ride is ridiculously more challenging than taking a cargo airplane off, cruising for 1-3 hours, and shooting an approach in icy, windy conditions.
I've done all of that. The stress that you feel during the .2 takeoff phase and the .3 landing phase is high in civillian ops. The stress you get from the same phases in the fighter world is low compared to the hour of tactical maneuvering in between the takeoff and landing. OBTW, leading a 4 ship uses plenty of CRM to qualify on the same lines as "how do you feel about gear down, landing checklist?"
I'm already with the airline. So the mins don't affect me personally, except that now I have a lot of buddies that would do a great job that will not get to prove it for several more years.

Let me reiterate - I've done both. Flying a 121 Jet is EASY. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. And the competitive edge a commuter guy has is gone after the non-commuter types read the FOM/FAR 121/ have a sim.
I'm not trying to take away anything from the non-mil types, just saying that there's no friggen way you can say that 3000 hours total time, of which 90% of it is in cruise is better experience than 1500 hours of actually moving the jet. Believe it or not, a guy with a better instrument cross-check has a HUGE advantage in a dogfight.