Alaska Airlines Furloughs

[turbodriver]

Furlough swallows, yes it does and my thoughts are with the furloughees. Sitting reserve sucks, no doubt about it. Now, Delta buying our tiny little company.... You think we'll be taken care of by our "DALPA brothers and sisters"?
Still waiting for ALPA to "take it back".

Ill talke my chances with DALPA than with this ALPO MEC. They're doing nothing for me. "The RBBP program will mitigate furloughs" they say. My March 2nd letter hasn't been cancelled yet as a result of this fantastic program......

 

[Singlecoil]

Furlough swallows, yes it does and my thoughts are with the furloughees. Sitting reserve sucks, no doubt about it. Now, Delta buying our tiny little company.... You think we'll be taken care of by our "DALPA brothers and sisters"?
Still waiting for ALPA to "take it back".

It doesn't matter what DALPA wants. Seniority integration ends up in binding arbitration. No more staple jobs allowed.

 

[sf340flyer]

Ill talke my chances with DALPA than with this ALPO MEC. They're doing nothing for me. "The RBBP program will mitigate furloughs" they say. My March 2nd letter hasn't been cancelled yet as a result of this fantastic program......

So what do you want our MEC to do?? They don't dictate what the company does. They don't issue staffing numbers to the company.

BTW, people need to sign up for the RBBP for it to mitigate furloughs. Has anyone signed up yet?

If you are in the next round, are you going to ask for ALPA to cover your Health Care, wait ALPA has done nothing for you.

 

[sf340flyer]

......What kind of F'd up place is this? The Co is trying to deny moving expenses for cars if you don't move your entire household and the union says "expense it then grieve it." Again...F'd up! I WELCOME DAL....come and SAVE us please. Flush this Mngmt and union leadership. What happened to the Co-terminal? Union says "if the co wanted it they could have blah blah blah..." What about what the PILOTS wanted? F'd up!......

Baja Out!

Baja, where in the CBA does it reference moving expenses for a crashpad?
So you want to remove an agreed upon staffing number in a LOA. Have you asked your rep why the 205 number is in there?

The company sets the BPL number, not the union.

If you don't want to go to ANC, I'm sure at least one of the 79 would take your place.

 

[Going2Baja]

Read Sect 6 dude. It states what the Co will pay for if it's a company paid move. I does NOT state differences between household or crash pad.

As for the 205 - The Union could have offered to lower that number to take care of it's brothers. I doubt we will get the Co-terminal back. It didn't really help the CO, but it sure helped the guys/gals that lived in the OC and in San Diego.

Baja.

Baja, where in the CBA does it reference moving expenses for a crashpad?
So you want to remove an agreed upon staffing number in a LOA. Have you asked your rep why the 205 number is in there?

The company sets the BPL number, not the union.

If you don't want to go to ANC, I'm sure at least one of the 79 would take your place.

 

[becket]

It didn't really help the CO, but it sure helped the guys/gals that lived in the OC and in San Diego.

Baja.

I hope you don't really believe that. Airlines do NOTHING that does not benefit them first. If it made some pilots happy, that was an unintended consequence.

 

[turbodriver]

So what do you want our MEC to do?? They don't dictate what the company does. They don't issue staffing numbers to the company.

BTW, people need to sign up for the RBBP for it to mitigate furloughs. Has anyone signed up yet?

If you are in the next round, are you going to ask for ALPA to cover your Health Care, wait ALPA has done nothing for you.

I want them to stay on the company's a$$ in regards to getting the NMB to make them abide by the contract which says that any program created will PREVENT(not mitigate) furloughs. First paragraph in section 23. Read it. It doesn't surprise me that the company is still stalling on the grievances that are out there about furloughing us out of contract. Even with a labor friendly NMB to boot! They're too busy preparing for the strike. Which I don't care about cause I wont be here anyway. I was told that 50+ people are in the RBBP this month alone. Not the mention the (50 or so) early outs that were supposed to reduce furloughs 1 for 1. What ever happened to them?!?

Oh, and there's so much ALPA red tape with that health care assessment it takes forever to actually see any money from it. I'll find a desk job with health care before I receive one dime. Which probably was the original intent anyway. There goes more of my $$$ into ALPO's pocket. If I knew all that red tape existed, I would've' voted no.

 

[sf340flyer]

I want them to stay on the company's a$$ in regards to getting the NMB to make them abide by the contract which says that any program created will PREVENT(not mitigate) furloughs. First paragraph in section 23. Read it. It doesn't surprise me that the company is still stalling on the grievances that are out there about furloughing us out of contract. Even with a labor friendly NMB to boot! They're too busy preparing for the strike. Which I don't care about cause I wont be here anyway. I was told that 50+ people are in the RBBP this month alone. Not the mention the (50 or so) early outs that were supposed to reduce furloughs 1 for 1. What ever happened to them?!?

Oh, and there's so much ALPA red tape with that health care assessment it takes forever to actually see any money from it. I'll find a desk job with health care before I receive one dime. Which probably was the original intent anyway. There goes more of my $$$ into ALPO's pocket. If I knew all that red tape existed, I would've' voted no.

Turbo, your "Arctic Eagle" image is really coming through. Okay first off, the NMB has NOTHING to do with our current contract. The NMB is only an oversight board for current negotiations. The legal process dealing with violations of our CBA is an Arbitrator. Read the MEC update from today, it explains this in detail.

"I was told," that is your first mistake, taking 2nd hand information as the truth. There were only 13 pilots on the RBBP in Feb.

The EOs, yes they did save jobs. The furloughed number would have been increased by 47 more if it wasn't for the EO.

I would like to know what Red Tape you are talking about with the HCA. The first reimbursements are going out this week. As far as the money going into ALPA's pocket. You must have not read the HCA information, as when the fund is closed, the money will be returned to the pilots. So please share what the red tape is.

So please get informed before you make statements next time. With someone like you, no matter what I say, you will always be correct (with your 2nd hand information).

 

[sf340flyer]

Read Sect 6 dude. It states what the Co will pay for if it's a company paid move. I does NOT state differences between household or crash pad.

As for the 205 - The Union could have offered to lower that number to take care of it's brothers. I doubt we will get the Co-terminal back. It didn't really help the CO, but it sure helped the guys/gals that lived in the OC and in San Diego.

Baja.

The past history with our CBA and company paid moves from displacements only cover household. This has been based on your address on file with the company. Feel free to file a grievance, but be ready for it take years to get resolved with no money for you.

The co-terminal. I guess you never called or asked you status rep why the 205 number is there. I'm not going to state the reason on a public forum, that is why I encouraged you to talk to your rep, or MEC officer. BTW, it did help the company. The LA area hotel rooms were less. The cost of the Super Shuttle was getting very costly, almost off setting the savings from the hotel rooms. Bottom line the co-terminal was saving the company money.

 

[Going2Baja]

340 - You still won't touch on why the MEC didn't allow the 205 to be lowered. I don't care if it benefited to co or not. It BENEFITED the dues paying pilots that lived in the area! I have talked to A.H. and he game no explanation as to why other than the usual "MEC isn't budging while there is a contract to settle." How does this help the SNA locals?

Baja.

 

[sf340flyer]

Sorry your rep didn't give you the infomation. If he didn't explain it, then he might not understand. It isn't as simple as it looks. The 205 was set as a number by the union when the LOA was signed. That is all I can say in a public forum.

Right now the company did something to personally impact you. The union upheld their previous agreement, and you have been impacted by driving to LAX instead of SNA, and now a commute to ANC. The union didn't do any of this, it was all the company. The union isn't up for degrading our contract as a reaction to the companies move. If we start now, it will never end until we don't have a contract anymore.

Sorry you were personally impacted by the companies actions, hopefully you can be back in LA with a co-terminal and a new contract shortly. Time will only tell.

 

[turbodriver]

Turbo, your "Arctic Eagle" image is really coming through. Okay first off, the NMB has NOTHING to do with our current contract. The NMB is only an oversight board for current negotiations. The legal process dealing with violations of our CBA is an Arbitrator. Read the MEC update from today, it explains this in detail.

"I was told," that is your first mistake, taking 2nd hand information as the truth. There were only 13 pilots on the RBBP in Feb.

The EOs, yes they did save jobs. The furloughed number would have been increased by 47 more if it wasn't for the EO.

I would like to know what Red Tape you are talking about with the HCA. The first reimbursements are going out this week. As far as the money going into ALPA's pocket. You must have not read the HCA information, as when the fund is closed, the money will be returned to the pilots. So please share what the red tape is.

So please get informed before you make statements next time. With someone like you, no matter what I say, you will always be correct (with your 2nd hand information).

Who told you 13? I was informed by the guy running the damm thing. You're right the NMB is an oversight board that assigns arbitrators to particular cases. Which is what happened in this case. So NMB is involved. (indirectly at this point if you want to get techinical about it)

The rep tape Im talking about is that you have to pay for COBRA yourself, submit for reimbursement, submit paperwork to verify that you have no job, submit paperwork if you do have other coverage, etc, etc. And who knows how long all this will actually take. The first 32 are about to find out. Again, the guy running the program told me this, so I'm not going to go as far to say that this info is second hand when it comes from the horses mouth.

So how many actual EO's were there??

And dont give me this "arctic eagle" and "alaska spirit" crap. All that is now out the window and it's going to take a he!! of a lot on managements part till it comes back....

 

[Fubijaakr]

The past history with our CBA and company paid moves from displacements only cover household. This has been based on your address on file with the company. Feel free to file a grievance, but be ready for it take years to get resolved with no money for you..

Actually, the Company will pay to move household goods AND vehicles BUT you have to move to/from your new base.

They did it for me twice without complaint.

I'm not sure if this guy is trying to get the Company to pay for a vehicle move to a crash pad, but if so, my reading of the contract says the Company doesn't have to pay for that.

 

[CGHercster]

Push it through! TSA gangstas

Oh, worry not my friend. We have a lot of VSA'ers who are more than willing to step up to the plate and help out in times of need.

Along that line, we have plenty of FOs sucking up all the OF flying in 1st and 2nd step pushing their lines up to 85. That's why there's now about 10 less OF lines than predicted upon bid award each month instead of 10 more like last year. Get it while it's hot!

 

[Going2Baja]

Right now the company did something to personally impact you. The union upheld their previous agreement, and you have been impacted by driving to LAX instead of SNA, and now a commute to ANC. The union didn't do any of this, it was all the company. The union isn't up for degrading our contract as a reaction to the companies move. If we start now, it will never end until we don't have a contract anymore.

The company did something that personally impacted the entire base, not just me. And actually I was one of the least affected as I am back on reserve after holding months of SNA flying. It is my feeling that the MEC should be looking out for it's members, and if there was a chance to hold onto the SNA flying by reducing the 205 then they should have done it. By not doing it we lost the flying anyway. So who here lost? The pilots, the LOCAL pilots - not the guys sitting in SEA in the offices across from the sims, but the guys driving to work down here in So Cal. Most of the guys impacted have over 30 years and are Jet-A...not junior pukes like myself.

As for the move - ONCE AGAIN. If you read section 6 on moves it breaks the moves into two parts - company paid moves and pilot paid move. Reductions are company paid moves. In this section it states what the company will pay for. NO WHERE does it say that a car move is associated ONLY with an entire household. I've talked at length with my base chief regarding this and he passed the word from SEA. "It's not going to happen." OK - I GET IT. My point is that if we can't read our contract and the union ISN'T going to support what is in writing then why are we trying so hard for a new contract that we won't support anyway? I've been told that there is some magical manual that talks about the intent and language of each section dating back YEARS...What the F is this? I'm filing the grievance as are the many others being displaced. We'll see what happens.

Baja.

 

[Fubijaakr]

If you look closely at the demographic of the 2nd floor, you'll find that most of them are ex-JetA.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Read Sect 6 dude. It states what the Co will pay for if it's a company paid move. I does NOT state differences between household or crash pad.

Actually I'll quote it for you. Here's the conditions under which the Company will pay to ship your vehicle:


2.

Displacement out of Domicile: A pilot who is displaced and must relocate to a new domicile, if:

a. the pilot must transfer to avoid downgrade, or
b. there are no positions available in a pilot's status or a lower status in his current domicile.​

So the question becomes this. Are you affected? Were you displaced from LAX or did you bid out? Were you a a forced downgrade? If either of these apply the Company owes you moving expenses IF you move your whole household to ANC. Why? Here's the single line that wipes out your argument:​

B. ​

Moves at Company Expense

The Company will pay moving expenses as specified in Section 6.C [Allowance] as follows:​

The 'as specified' means EVERYTHING that is specified. If you read all of 6C it refers to moving your entire household. Legalese, for sure, but that's the past practice. You move the whole kit and kaboodle to ANC, you get moving expenses. You choose to commute, they move stuff on our airplanes space available and you get D8Y commuter status for getting to and from work.

You can't sharpshoot what you want the Company to move for you. Well, I guess you can try, but as the Reps said, the only way you're going to win this one is to pay for it, grieve the Section of the contract and hope you win to recover the money.

Personally, I'd just commute up there and get an airport car.



​

 

[Going2Baja]

Actually I'll quote it for you. Here's the conditions under which the Company will pay to ship your vehicle:


2.

Displacement out of Domicile: A pilot who is displaced and must relocate to a new domicile, if:

a. the pilot must transfer to avoid downgrade, or
b. there are no positions available in a pilot's status or a lower status in his current domicile.​

So the question becomes this. Are you affected? Were you displaced from LAX or did you bid out? Were you a a forced downgrade? If either of these apply the Company owes you moving expenses IF you move your whole household to ANC. Why? Here's the single line that wipes out your argument:​

B. ​

Moves at Company Expense

The Company will pay moving expenses as specified in Section 6.C [Allowance] as follows:​

The 'as specified' means EVERYTHING that is specified. If you read all of 6C it refers to moving your entire household. Legalese, for sure, but that's the past practice. You move the whole kit and kaboodle to ANC, you get moving expenses. You choose to commute, they move stuff on our airplanes space available and you get D8Y commuter status for getting to and from work.

You can't sharpshoot what you want the Company to move for you. Well, I guess you can try, but as the Reps said, the only way you're going to win this one is to pay for it, grieve the Section of the contract and hope you win to recover the money.

Personally, I'd just commute up there and get an airport car.



​

Thanks for typing the contact and saving me the time.

Yes I was displaced from Sect 6 B 2b - as were many other f/o's.

So we agree that this qualifies as a "Moves at Company Expense." I've run the "The company will pay moving expenses as specified in Section 6.C [Allowance] as follows:" by three attorneys, my base f/o rep, and my CP and not a single one reads it as you just did. There clearly isn't any language in the contract that shows that the all or none of the items in Section 6 C must be together.

Where is your dog in this fight? I thought you were Mr. Pro Union - all for your Union brothers...

The message I received from my rep is to spear head this and get all affected and submit the entire group as a 'class action' style grievance. If ew are reading this wrong and it could be pointed out to use I'd have no problem saying ok, but there's not. I also understand that after I'm able to bid back to LAX that any moving will be on my dime as I'm the one requesting the transfer.

I'm over this...I'll let you know how it turns out.

Baja Out.

 

[Going2Baja]

Along that line, we have plenty of FOs sucking up all the OF flying in 1st and 2nd step pushing their lines up to 85. That's why there's now about 10 less OF lines than predicted upon bid award each month instead of 10 more like last year. Get it while it's hot!

Not just F/O's sorry...plenty of Capt's doing the same thing. What's the point of the Union reducing the lines if everyone is picking up to 85? Some unity.

Baja.

 

[Mookie]

First question to any captain you fly with from now on should be "how many hours is your line this month?" if it's over 80 (allowing for some overage)...then that should be a quiet cockpit other than normal checklists. Apathy is so ingrained in the culture it's maddening.

Mookie

 

[Fubijaakr]

Baja,

I am. I'm just telling you the past practice. Go for it!

 

[tico]

This is for everyone hired after May 1st, 2005...... If you had not listened to your daddy or your sugar daddy or your wifes daddy or you wifes sugar daddy or in some cases your husbands sugar daddy and done your own thinking....(not what you typically find in you typical silver spoon alaska airlines copilot) than you would have realized that this place is a $hithole and is likely to continue to be a $hithole and in fact has always been a $hithole........ I have listened to all of you tell me how it is better then (insert large regional airline here)but all of you were senior captains and check airman( well almost all of you)some were just entitlement copilots and some were typical myopic military pilots but you all had a job at the top of your local food chain....You listened to the siren song coming from your checkairman friend(for you military types)or your daddy or your daddys friend etc...for the rest of you....And boom...your little dream threw a rod(pm me if you need an explanation of that term)And now you are furloughed or being force based etc......booh efin hoo.....All of the hiring from jan of 07 on and all of the upgrades were for the purpose of removing the MD-80 from the fleet...period..Those in the know at the time were quite liberal with that information....It is called a training bubble... unfortunateley for y'all, age 65 hit at the same time and the economy took a ********************ter....course the economy takin' a ********************ter could be seen from 3-5 years away......So your out of a job or you aint a captain anymore ore you have to move to a new base....tough $hit.....I have sent about three grand towards the furloughed dudes and dudetes to help them find a home depot job etc....for all the rest of you winey cry babies....get over it...I am making room for someone on march 2nd to stay at this house of cards......yea I lost my capt. seat to some LA guy but I got sick of the noise and just plain quit.....No job to go to but at least I wont have to sit in the right seat and listen to some punk who lands half way down the runway how bad he got screwed........ oh yea and to all of the vsa w************************* and the over 60 w*************************.....none of whom have donated a dime to help your furloughed brothers and sisters....may parkinsons come early to you............................Done here

 

[igneousy2]

I am tired of all the complaining about the SNA co-terminal going away.

We have an agreement and we need to enforce our agreement. We cannot pick and choose which provisions of the agreement we enforce just because it inconviniences a relative handful of our pilots.

The co-terminal is a benefit to the COMPANY. And if they want the benefit of being able to have a co-terminal then they need to abide by the contract.

 

[Snapshot]

for all the rest of you winey cry babies....get over it...I am making room for someone on march 2nd to stay at this house of cards.....I got sick of the noise and just plain quit.....

You calling other pilots whiners really made my day. Nice to have a good laugh in tough times.:laugh:

If you really did pull the trigger, thanks for keeping me from having to sit next to your bitter, bitter, miserable, bitter self.
With any luck, Lollipop Airlines will be looking for people to do the Gumdrop Mountain run.


Seriously, though, thanks for donating to the furloughees. It takes a lot to give to people you hold in such contempt.

 

[Going2Baja]

I am tired of all the complaining about the SNA co-terminal going away.

.....just because it inconviniences a relative handful of our pilots.

The co-terminal is a benefit to the COMPANY. And if they want the benefit of being able to have a co-terminal then they need to abide by the contract.

You must be a SEA or ANC guy....Thanks for the well wishes. Can't wait to fly w/ you - should be a blast talking about snow blowers or your local ice fishing hole.

And once again - It may have been a benefit for the CO but it was also a benefit for the local dues paying pilots.

Bottom line - Go blow your snow blower!

Baja.

 

[Chief Pilot]

Wow.

I've been gone for a couple weeks and was surprised to come back to so much infighting. The one thing we can all agree on is that the current situation stinks and management's process has apparently delivered the desired results.

Stay the course folks. It will only get better if we don't implode and let management win this.

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

This is for everyone hired after May 1st, 2005...... If you had not listened to your daddy or your sugar daddy or your wifes daddy or you wifes sugar daddy or in some cases your husbands sugar daddy and done your own thinking....(not what you typically find in you typical silver spoon alaska airlines copilot) than you would have realized that this place is a $hithole and is likely to continue to be a $hithole and in fact has always been a $hithole........ I have listened to all of you tell me how it is better then (insert large regional airline here)but all of you were senior captains and check airman( well almost all of you)some were just entitlement copilots and some were typical myopic military pilots but you all had a job at the top of your local food chain....You listened to the siren song coming from your checkairman friend(for you military types)or your daddy or your daddys friend etc...for the rest of you....And boom...your little dream threw a rod(pm me if you need an explanation of that term)And now you are furloughed or being force based etc......booh efin hoo.....All of the hiring from jan of 07 on and all of the upgrades were for the purpose of removing the MD-80 from the fleet...period..Those in the know at the time were quite liberal with that information....It is called a training bubble... unfortunateley for y'all, age 65 hit at the same time and the economy took a ********************ter....course the economy takin' a ********************ter could be seen from 3-5 years away......So your out of a job or you aint a captain anymore ore you have to move to a new base....tough $hit.....I have sent about three grand towards the furloughed dudes and dudetes to help them find a home depot job etc....for all the rest of you winey cry babies....get over it...I am making room for someone on march 2nd to stay at this house of cards......yea I lost my capt. seat to some LA guy but I got sick of the noise and just plain quit.....No job to go to but at least I wont have to sit in the right seat and listen to some punk who lands half way down the runway how bad he got screwed........ oh yea and to all of the vsa w************************* and the over 60 w*************************.....none of whom have donated a dime to help your furloughed brothers and sisters....may parkinsons come early to you............................Done here

Did you really quit or go on LOA? Either way, good luck to you.

 

[becket]

Did you really quit or go on LOA? Either way, good luck to you.

Hopefully going to rehab...

 

[Mamma]

This is for everyone hired after May 1st, 2005...... If you had not listened to your daddy or your sugar daddy or your wifes daddy or you wifes sugar daddy or in some cases your husbands sugar daddy and done your own thinking....(not what you typically find in you typical silver spoon alaska airlines copilot) than you would have realized that this place is a $hithole and is likely to continue to be a $hithole and in fact has always been a $hithole........ I have listened to all of you tell me how it is better then (insert large regional airline here)but all of you were senior captains and check airman( well almost all of you)some were just entitlement copilots and some were typical myopic military pilots but you all had a job at the top of your local food chain....You listened to the siren song coming from your checkairman friend(for you military types)or your daddy or your daddys friend etc...for the rest of you....And boom...your little dream threw a rod(pm me if you need an explanation of that term)And now you are furloughed or being force based etc......booh efin hoo.....All of the hiring from jan of 07 on and all of the upgrades were for the purpose of removing the MD-80 from the fleet...period..Those in the know at the time were quite liberal with that information....It is called a training bubble... unfortunateley for y'all, age 65 hit at the same time and the economy took a ********************ter....course the economy takin' a ********************ter could be seen from 3-5 years away......So your out of a job or you aint a captain anymore ore you have to move to a new base....tough $hit.....I have sent about three grand towards the furloughed dudes and dudetes to help them find a home depot job etc....for all the rest of you winey cry babies....get over it...I am making room for someone on march 2nd to stay at this house of cards......yea I lost my capt. seat to some LA guy but I got sick of the noise and just plain quit.....No job to go to but at least I wont have to sit in the right seat and listen to some punk who lands half way down the runway how bad he got screwed........ oh yea and to all of the vsa w************************* and the over 60 w*************************.....none of whom have donated a dime to help your furloughed brothers and sisters....may parkinsons come early to you............................Done here

Holy Cow! You actually quit. I would have waited or gone on a LOA to see what the contract would have turned out as....I doubt it will be what we want but it might be in the ballpark. I and many I know were hired after May 2005 and I have not heard much crying. Most of us knew what we were getting into and it is what it is. I cannot complain about the payrates as I signed up with them in place. It is an entirely different story with those that were raped by Kasher and the company. The problem is the company has the upper hand and they do what managements do...they hang onto it all costs. Look at the great results the pilot group is giving them....why should they be in any rush to change the status quo? With that in mind, none of their games suprise me in the slightest. It will take a strike or the midnight before one before they are forced to act. That is what I expected all the time. I personally don't think you will be downgraded for long. We are having a tough time with reserves on a winter schedule so I don't see how they plan on running a summer schedule with such low numbers. Try not to take it personal even though it is incredibly hard to not do so. Bill is a bean counter, not a leader. Knowing that makes it easy to predict what he will do and you will not be suprised. The company and analysts are saying Alaska is well postured for this and next year even with the recession. It might be worth your time to hold out a few more months.