AirTran's going to SFO

[Ty Webb]

I would consider the CA governorship, but Arnold and I have a deal- I don't run for Governor, and he doesn't smush egocentric Delta pilots "like a bug" . . . if anything changes, though, you'll get a form letter hitting you up for a campaign contribution, I promise.

 

[FL717]

FL717,

I appreciate your comments. I do not work for Delta - I just enjoy reading General Lee's posts - that guy knows his stuff and he has ball$.........

I saw 727 in your profile and assumed you might be from Delta. My apologies. You are a regular interesting contributor and my comments to you still apply... and yes I agree that I enjoy General Lees insights and posts to this forum.

General Lee manages to come across to me differently than FlydeltasJets.. who recently retired from the Flightinfo forums for a skin disorder... a lack of thickness I believe.

Take care.

 

[Ivan Yankenoff]

I have to agree with opinion of ty's cockiness. Let me see, he/it started off in business field then did the whole corporate flying thing, interviewed at Midwest(turned down) at the same time interviewed at Airtran and got the job. How much does anyone want to bet that he/it would be ripping apart the lcc's if he got the midwest job. AirTran is one market rally away from bq. How many of the ever increasing near or in retirement citizens want to fly with the wife beater wearing, chain smoking, knees in the back of my neck, sailor mouthed, jerry springer, toothless pax's that they typically carry.

Why is it that I can fly almost any of the other lcc's, but when I fly airtran I feel like I need to shower as soon as I get home?

I have not run into a crew from FL that wasn't cool as shi*t, but at some point there has to be a tooth count on board. If it isn't above a typical grown american then we must be violating some type of security requirement.

 

[LearLove]

"AirTran is one market rally away from bq. How many of the ever increasing near or in retirement citizens want to fly with the wife beater wearing, chain smoking, knees in the back of my neck, sailor mouthed, jerry springer, toothless pax's that they typically carry"

I don't know anymore but my guess is price rules. For example my uncle has his own law firm and used to fly on US Air for years to his place in FL (from PHL) several times per month. Now he buys first class on airtran gets the same service in a bigger seat for a better $$$. It makes sence and I don't blame him. We can't compete anymore. If you can't beat 'em, join them, and I'm trying like heck.

However I did get the chance to spend alittle time in BWI last week for the first time since U pulled chocks from that place. Took a walk up to the Taco Bell where the whole place was U now its a mix of Airtran and AWA. Totally new breed of pax is all I can say. And on more than one pax I did see shopping bags in leu of luggage. Very interesting noises and smells too. O well guess it's America.

 

[AlbieF15]

Maybe I'm just to into Kharma, but I think bad-mouthing the passengers as being "low class" or "beneath" your current airlines clientelle only invites trouble.

The passengers you disdain so much have made tons of money for the LCCs, and kept pilots at several companies making 6 figure salaries.

The high brow customers abandoned the majors in droves when the market got tough, and now a bunch of pilots are doing other types of work.

Methinks the best approach would be to say "come try our airline. We've got great prices AND great service...and we'll get you there safely with a smile." The smart marketers out there will be kissing up to the customers who pay the bills...and Mr/Ms internet software salesperson who just paid $800 for a walk up ticket doesn't seem to be around anymore...

If you really hate those pax so much, then just mosey on over to FedEx or UPS with me...I haven't had a low class passenger yet.

 

[Ty Webb]

Albie, you are right on.

Also, in the nearly two years I have been here, I have seen amazing changes. I have sat next to many, many executives, small business owners, and lawyers flying on us.

Just the other day, I sat next to a retired Delta guy and his wife. Just retired off "the ER" (I take it that's one of the 767 variant). First time on board. didn;t want to take a chance non-revving (they were going to some function). I tried top see the flight through his eyes. Here's what he saw:

1) A full flight

2) When he got to the back of the plane, and found the overhead space full, he looked kind of agitated. A dead-heading pilot in the back who saw this offered to help him find a place for his bag (me).

3) Professional, friendly F/A's that did full service twice, not sat on their cans in the galley doing crossword puzzles.

4) A Captain that during a departure delay, set the brakes and offered to let people use the lavs and their cell phones to notify their families of the late arrival.

5) A clean, quiet B717

6) A 99.8% luggage handling record (consistently the second highest in the industry).

7) Me to keep him entertained (no extra charge).

I think he would probably be the first one to tell you AirTran naysayers that as long as you keep badmouthing AirTran and our passengers, you're only fiddling while Rome burns.

For the guy that thinks we're "one cycle ahead of bankruptcy"- you, sir, are an idiot. We have been making money during the worst of times, and as we get rid of the DC9 and enjoy the refinancing of our debt to Boeing, we continue to accumulate cash in the bank ($400 million unencumbered), and we only serve 44 cities in the country so far. While things beyond our control are a fact of life, don't expect us to be going away anytime soon.

 

[General Lee]

Ty,

You said your airline was having 25% growth at our FORTRESS hub--that is what you said. That is wrong. How could you? You don't have the number of gates to expand at that rate. You stated it wrong. Sure, your BWI numbers and Flint numbers are growing----good for you.

Smaller planes and shorter flights don't need entertainment? Tell that to jetblue and their new EMB-190s---I guess Neeleman is wrong in your eyes too. Man, you are perfect.

You don't think we could compete with 100 seaters on some of your flights? What? Ok.....We also have the flexibility to put a 70 seater or something larger on it if the need arises. You can throw Airwhisky on it I guess. The new birds would probably replace the older 737s, and Delta is working with the FAA to get a common type rating on several aircraft, and currently deciding on how to make a common cockpit in several airplanes--and they are doing this with Boeing. Over time, the training costs will go way down---and that is a fact. But, you neglected to think about that one.

And, you think you could do a better job managing Delta huh? Thank God that is not an option---Delta is not really like a Quiznos.(although we will probably be selling Quiznos sandwiches on Song eventually, and the pax will love it)

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FLB717]

?? ? ?

 

[General Lee]

FLB717,

Please excuse my venting, but Ty gets me going sometimes. He claimed that Airtran has been growing at a rate of 25% per year at our ATL "Fortress" hub as he calls it. If that were true, you would have 2 full terminals full of airplanes, which is not the case. There is no doubt that Airtran is expanding, and that is good for you. Then he claims to be an expert at business and claims he could do better than our managment with the daily operations of Delta. Something that he doesn't understand and may not have recognized is that Delta has been doing a good job of reorganizing airplanes on different routes. They have been moving airplanes around to fit capacity needs. Those 737-200's that used to fly Express are now being used to fly to cities that cannot handle an MD-88--like LEX to ATL or BTR to ATL. Those MD-88s are then moved to cities that maybe cannot be justified with 757 service, like PHX-ATL in the Summertime. Then those 757s are moved to Song to capitalize on the LCC craze. I think our management is doing a pretty good job, except those bonuses are a little to big when people are getting furloughed. Besides that, they are doing a good job. Thanks for letting me vent FLB717---have a good day.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

Slight correction. LEX-ATL and BTR-ATL are former ASA routes that got too large for us to handle with CRJ's. Despite what some folks think, the flying has gone both ways.

Also, AI RSM's have increased 25% yearly. I bought my stock at $2.40 a share. It opened at $13.95 this morning. I know Delta pilots are not the best at percentages, so I will explain, that is a 581% gain. I just may be doing better than your much maligned management team at Delta.

Wonder when Mike Pinho is going to accuse me of "unethical behavior."

 

[~~~^~~~]

Ty,

You don't think we could compete with 100 seaters on some of your flights? What? Ok.....We also have the flexibility to put a 70 seater or something larger on it if the need arises.

Over time, the training costs will go way down---and that is a fact. But, you neglected to think about that one.

And, you think you could do a better job managing Delta huh?
Bye Bye--General Lee

No, acutally Delta can not operate a 70 seater on a bunch of flights because the airline is scope constrained to 57 of the aircraft, unless they deal with DALPA and DALPA has a bad habit of refusing to negotiate, walking out, and generally acting in bad faith.

Training costs, training costs??? Right now the average Delta pilot is flying around 40 hours a month. ALPA blames this on training rather than lousy pilot productivity. Which is it?

Yep, I think I could do a better job at managing Delta, but I would have never signed contract 2000. I was smart enough to realize the Comair pilots were desperate enough to strike (not much to walk away from) and the Delta pilots would not have struck (too big for ALPA to afford, too big for the President to take, and too much money for the Delta pilots to walk away from).

United did a stupid deal that along with other stupid deals put them in bankruptcy. DAL topped United's deal by 2% and is headed off the same cliff in late 2004 or early 2005.

Wish that I had shorted DAL when it was $40 a share, or the day C2K was signed and it was trading in the high twenties.

 

[Ty Webb]

The General's one 'round the bend

The ASM's have been growing at 25%, and the majority of the flights take place through ATL . . . but now we have been connecting the dots, which is more efficient, and matching O&D traffic, skipping ATL altogether. So, I know you want to hear that denying us gates in ATL was a good thing, but the reality of it is that it helped motivate us to offer more direct, non-stop flights, which are cheaper for us, spare us the ATL delays, and the customers like it better.

Then he claims to be an expert at business and claims he could do better than our managment with the daily operations of Delta.

No, I said that I could do better by throwing darts at a board.

General, I think you are losing it, pal. Take a deep breath, and step away from the keyboard. Go play outside. Read a book. Go visit your buddy FDJ at the Peachtree City Home Depot (lawn center, I think). Have a beer.

 

[General Lee]

Ty and Fins,

You guys are the ones who are losing it. You hope and wish for failure, and cannot see the forest through the trees. Fins just hates Delta pilots in general. Mike Pinho was speaking direct lies to him at the meeting. What a joke. What you cannot see is that DAL is not the same as AA or UA, and does not have the same number of unions or personel. We are the strongest major by far and have the best cash position. Things have been getting better and we had operating profits this summer. Even the analysts were surprised. That is good. To think that the only thing holding Delta back is pilot pay is ridiculous. Also, most Delta pilots do not only fly 40 hours a month. The reason the average is low is because there are a lot of pilots in training at one time, and during that time they fly zero hours, which brings the average down. This isn't Southwest with one aircraft type, we have a lot of different types---all ordered by our managment. We have been in constant flux lately in training due to the large amount of retirements, and right now we have another 167 Capts EARLY retiring to collect on their lump sum (with the Gatt rate rising) on Sept 1st. Delta has created a great LCC in Song that will combat against Jetblue famously. (When all 37 757s arrive by DEC) The yeilds have gone up and have helped financially. And Fins, those LEX and BTR routes have been MD88 and 727 routes before your RJ's---I did LEX as a 727FE. It is easy to try to slam the big dog on the block. Fins doesn't like it that he might get bumped from his CR7 Capt seat, even though 1310 of our guys have hit the street. Ty says his RSMs or ASMs have grown 25% every year for the past couple. That is great, but your flight numbers at ATL have not, and that is what you said. You still have only half of the C concourse. (Airwhisky has part of D) Maybe when your new terminal is built in a couple years---then your departures can grow like that. And then he is insecure enough to slam one of our furloughs, FDJ, about working at Home Depot. Nice. He also likes to slam United. He must be very insecure. And Fins, you might be lucky enough someday to get an interview with Delta when we hire again, but I suggest you go to Airtran. You and Ty can room together and throw darts at Leo's picture, and Mike Pinho's for Fins.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Heavy Set]

Let me suggest that both sides are a bit off. Delta should not be underestimated - it has the cash and an actual plan to compete effectively against the LCCs. With new 100-seaters coming in the next few years, and the potential for more 70-90 seaters flown by Delta furloughees possible, Delta will compete even better. Delta is in the best position it can be at the moment and the expansion of Song and proliferation of 100-seaters (and more RJs) will only improve its position in the future.

AirTran is also doing well with its expansion and its point-to-point offerings. With new Boeings on the way, AirTran will extend its reach and continue to force prices down. AirTran is also in a good position. With UAL sinking fast and AA, CAL and NW flying without robust plans, Delta is in the pole position among the majors.

Let's put this one to rest....

 

[MDP727]

Hey Airtran guys I say congrats! Good luck with your new 737's. If there like ours at ATA you'll love'em. It's nice to climb in a van like I did in Philly the other night, going to the hotel and have a converstion with other pilots, they were Airtran guys. Ya see, to all the rest of you major pukes, except (SWA, UPS, FEDEX), you've been looking down on other folks in the industry for all these years. Snuffing your noses at the other people out there trying to make a living flying airplanes, when really were all one in the same. Hey, by the way, to you folks that only carry one jump seater, don't show up to my airplane. Amazing, you'll move an airplane empty before helping out one more person in your industry.

 

[General Lee]

MDP727,

So, just because our company will only allow one jumpseater per airplane, and actually two jumpseaters if the plane has two jumpseats--like 767-400, some 767-30ERs, and the 777s---you won't let us ride on your ATA planes. Well, ok then. I will report this to our jumpseat coordinator. Thanks in advance for the heads up.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Ty Webb]

Simma down, Clown!

Not true. Don't put words in my mouth.


To think that the only thing holding Delta back is pilot pay is ridiculous.

I never said this, either. There are many things holding Delta back- numero uno is their insistance on taking heavy losses to "keep market share". Ain't working.

Delta has created a great LCC in Song that will combat against Jetblue famously.

You're just whistling in the dark here. No shred of evidence that DAL will ever be able to make this carrier cost-competitive. No shred of evidence yet that it won;t simply erode mainline revenue. It's all a guess, and we will have to wait and see.

Ty says his RSMs or ASMs have grown 25% every year for the past couple. That is great, but your flight numbers at ATL have not, and that is what you said. You still have only half of the C concourse. (Airwhisky has part of D)

Man, you are clinging to that 25% ASM thing like Leo clinging to his golden parachute. The point is that we are growing at 25% ASM . . . almost entirely on routes that DAL serves. Whether or not they all come though ATL matters not. The ones that DON'T go through ATL are more profitable and are more of an indicator of our success, not less.

The gates at Concourse D are not Air Whiskey's, they are ours, and if you would put down your crossword puzzle and look across the ramp, you'd see 717 and DC9's over there all the time.

Last, FDJ doesn;t work at the Home Depot, that was a joke, you were just too wound up to get it.

Time for a little vacation, General?

 

[MDP727]

Now I'm getting words put in my mouth! I never stated a DAL person couldn't jumpseat on us, in fact, we fill every seat every time we can no matter who they fly for! General, why don't you guys go to your management and get your policy changed?
Ya see guys, there's room for all of us out there. The flying public should have a nice variety of air travel to chose from. Some let the coporate mentality spill over into our pilot groups too much. Bottom dollar, no matter what color the uniform we all put are pants on the same way when we wake up. Feast or famine in this buisness. Enjoy the good times while they last, stay postured for the bad times and don't ever forget where ya came from.

 

[General Lee]

Ty,

You seem to be more civil when you aren't making jokes about our furloughs--like FDJ. I think he would have seen it the same way. Just don't make fun of someone who has little control over his/her situation. It makes you look bad. Anyways, Fred Reid was the one who stated that the CASM for Song was 7.0---which was as good or better than Southwest. The pilots at Song (mainline pilots) are the only ones that are expensive--and everyone else has taken large paycuts or benefit cuts to be a part of it. The seats were increased to 199 on the 757, and they got rid of one flight attendant (4 from 5). That may sound bad, but with the introduction of the entertainment system in OCT (or next year--whatever...?), people will be distracted by the TV etc, and therefore require less attention. That is a ture fact. And, if they needed it, they would get it from the spunky people that were "auditioned" for the job---no old grumpy ones here. It is a win-win. IF it truly is 7.0, I have a feeling it will spread, but the pilots are the only ones with a union and a contract--and even though I do see some sort of a pay cut down the road, I don't see a major one.(10-15% is probably accurate)

I know I kept harping on your 25% figure, but originally you stated 25% growth at ATL, and I took that as flights--not ASMs. I knew that there was no way you could grow with number of flights with the same number of gates. I am sure your loads have grwon, and your flights elsewhere, like PHL, BWI, and Good ole Flint, have increased. I never disputed that.

AS far as Delta taking huges losses to keep market share, can you prove that? We have had a great summer with operational profits---$31 million in June and probably more in July and AUG---which haven't been reported. The Fall will probably be tough, but late Nov will start things up again. You need to produce proof for me to believe you on that. The reason we have been losing money overall is our debt service, which with paycuts eventually, will be lowered. But operationally, we have shown profits, which goes against what you are saying. We compete with you on ATL-LGA, and soon ATL-DCA--and those routes are our bread and butter, and are doing fine. Who competes with us on ATL-HNL? How about ATL-- Munich? I bet we profit on those. It all goes into one big pot.

MDP727,

We didn't have ANY jumpseat until 1996. We lost big time in the '96 contract just to get a jumpseat option. Right now the company wants a 31% paycut and we are telling them no way, to not treat us like the other airlines--AA and UAL--because we do not have their exact problems. We are holding up the pay bar for you guys and other airlines. Do you really want us to cave in and then ask them politely for open jumpseats? We are lucky to have any. We will someday ask for them, and if we do give in a little and give them 15% or whatever in pay, I already asked our guys to request that. We shall see what happens.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[skykid]

Gen Lee, something caught my eye on the last page about Song having a 77% load factor in July. Do you realize that everybody is full this Summer? If that 77% is correct, its not a good number ar all. Maybe you meant 87%. Loads will start to drop about now until Thanksgiving, but the good news for all airlines is salesmen and execs are hitting the airports in bigger numbers.