Airtran??

[Lear70]

You're in the minority, buddy, trust me. Next year there won't BE any 3 year CA's upgrading with the deferred deliveries.

My pay including August was $32,439.87. Project that forward you get a 2nd year F/O hired in '06 making about $50k for 2007. About 60k for 2008 (3rd year guys), about 70k for 2009, and about 90k for 2010 assuming a few late 4 year upgrades, and that's a BIG assumption, I'd guess closer to an early 5-year upgrade track for pilots hired in 2006.

You were lucky in your timing in hiring, I don't think AirTran will see any 2-3 year upgrades again for a LONG time to come (if ever).

 

[twepilot]

agreed...2-3 year upgrades are gone for the most part. But, in this business you just never know. There are no absolutes.

RV

 

[maxblast72]

You're in the minority, buddy, trust me. Next year there won't BE any 3 year CA's upgrading with the deferred deliveries.

My pay including August was $32,439.87. Project that forward you get a 2nd year F/O hired in '06 making about $50k for 2007. About 60k for 2008 (3rd year guys), about 70k for 2009, and about 90k for 2010 assuming a few late 4 year upgrades, and that's a BIG assumption, I'd guess closer to an early 5-year upgrade track for pilots hired in 2006.

You were lucky in your timing in hiring, I don't think AirTran will see any 2-3 year upgrades again for a LONG time to come (if ever).

That crappy FO pay (for years 2 and on) has been my arguement all along. Our Captain's don't need 1 cent over COLA (and maybe not even that) on the next TA until our FO pay comes up significantly so we can get a handle on our attrition rate. However, with AP and SH, the FO pay issue didn't matter and AP even said that at the roadshows (he said senior pilots have been he longer and will stay at Airtran longer). When push came to shove, AP and SH sold out the junior guys for their own benefit. Luckily our junior guys and some senior guys saw this and turned down TA2. When push comes to shove this time, I think the junior guys will get a more fair shake. MB understands that the junior guys (6 years or less) can outvote the senior guys on any TA that comes down the road. AP never figured that out until he was recalled.

That is why we need a changing of the guard to more junior guys leading the union. The first step has already been taking with MB being elected president. I believe he is the youngest and most junior president we have ever had. We will know the results of the rest of BOD this month.

We don't need any wedge issues at Airtran when we are trying to make our union stronger (especially with a sub 50% voter turnout for VP vote) but I get fustrated listening to some of my FOs telling me what some senior captains are telling them about turning down TA2.

As for upgrade times, you are right, they are increasing. But they might not increase as much as you think. We have alot of 737 FO's that are too good to fly captain on the 717 (they want to stay at mainline). Also, the uncertainty of the future QOL and pay of the reserve system of the next contract might lead to some people bypassing so 717 CA upgrades might be able to stay under 4 years for a while.

 

[Lear70]

Well-said.

I don't doubt that some people will bypass upgrade because of the inability to drop reserve days, and there will always be those who want to wait until they can upgrade into a buildup or regular line, but that used to be a 6-8 month wait, now it's 2+ years...

I don't know if the same number of guys will still play that waiting game and give up around $150,000 of income over those 2 years. The only people who can really afford to are the ones with working spouses making 6 figures. But I could be wrong, it's happened plenty of times before.

Hopefully we'll have a new T.A. by this time next year that's worth ratifying, reserve will get fixed and won't be such an irritating exercise, and fewer will bypass, but I still bet the reserve pay system will disappear. I don't think it should, but I'm in the minority... AP and team managed (minimized) that expectation masterfully.

 

[airline#5]

I'll beat the drum over and over and over. 2/3 Capt pay for FO's. I let it be known with every capt I talk to and so should you! This pay disparity is sickening and putting me(us) deeper in the poor house. All while living an extremely conservative lifesytle.

 

[maxblast72]

Well-said.

Hopefully we'll have a new T.A. by this time next year that's worth ratifying, reserve will get fixed and won't be such an irritating exercise, and fewer will bypass, but I still bet the reserve pay system will disappear. I don't think it should, but I'm in the minority... AP and team managed (minimized) that expectation masterfully.

I have listened to MB at recurrent lunch and this is his philosophy on future reserve rules and pay: If reserve pay rules go to normal industry standard, then "trickle-up" economics will apply meaning better QOL for Buildup line holders on up through regular line holders. Right now the company plays games with reserves (urping), open time (holdback to ensure open time available to assign to reserves) so that the company can minimum the soft pay to reserves due to the Tomi arbitration.

That being said, there is no reason why we couldn't go to 18 days of work a month instead of 20 currently and a 75 hour guarantee. The way Airtran stays understaffed, reserve usage would probably be high enough on the 18 days to minimize soft pay (ie earn 50 hours of pay credit on 18 days reserve but still get paid 75). Pay credit for reserves in summertime and holidays would still easily go over 90 hours for 18 days work (trip rig, duty period guarantee, deadhead pay, still applies to reserves). Other times of the year pay would probably be around 75.

 

[Lear70]

Probably right. Twome-Kasher was a heck of a windfall, and it's obvious that it wasn't written to work like that, but it SHOULD... A reserve day is still not a day off for me and anything other than a day off should have some monetary value which all adds to guarantee.

Your idea of reserve (12/13 days off) would still not be enough for me. You've got to have a way to drop reserve days as a reserve pilot.

You are going to be on reserve 2 - 2 1/2 years, that's a long time with only 12-13 days off, although with the way you pick up time, I don't suspect days off are as big a deal to you as they are to me with kids and such at home and living out of base.

And, with the way AirTran understaffs, I was crediting 80 hours a month EVERY MONTH with 14-15 days off on reserve and very RARELY sat unused. They get their utilization, I get my days off. It worked brilliantly.

Guess everyone has their own priorities. For me, anything less than 14 days off gets a little tough for me to enjoy my family, 16 off is preferable.

 

[maxblast72]

I think the days off on reserve thing will come down to minimizing soft pay. If Airtran had Southwest aircraft and crew utilization, we probably could get 75 hours of credit on 16 days worth of work. But with our lower utilization, that might be tough to do. Unfortunately for us, Airtran has a hub and spoke system with 35 minute turns vs Southwest primarily point-to-point system with shorter turn which gives them a higher utilization rate.

Your right about the reserve system worked brilliantly when you could drop and swap, for reserve pilots. But the rest of the group (buildup and regular) were paying the price with trip trade denial, reassignments, etc due to low reserve coverage caused by some reserve guys doing excessive dropping (8 or 9 days dropped per month). The guys that abused the system led to the company going to no drop/swap and then urping when they feel coverage is adequate. That is taking away pay from some guys that probably want it, and not allowing drops for some guys that don't live in the ATL. There should be a way to make everyone happy. That is the benefit of working for a larger airline. Some guys want to fly more and some guys want to fly less depending on what is going on in their life at that particular time.

 

[Lear70]

Your right about the reserve system worked brilliantly when you could drop and swap, for reserve pilots. But the rest of the group (buildup and regular) were paying the price with trip trade denial, reassignments, etc due to low reserve coverage caused by some reserve guys doing excessive dropping (8 or 9 days dropped per month).

You know, guys kept saying that, but I was a lineholder my last 7 months there and never had a problem improving my line.

I would get some denials, but by doing my trades early and watching the open time with FLICA alerts, I always was able to massage my schedule into 15-16 days off with 75-80 hours of credit as a lineholder with full or partial weekends off.

So I don't see that reservists being able to drop days hurt the lineholders excessively. That argument doesn't hunt with me since I operated on both sides of the equation in my time there.

The guys that abused the system led to the company going to no drop/swap and then urping when they feel coverage is adequate. That is taking away pay from some guys that probably want it, and not allowing drops for some guys that don't live in the ATL. There should be a way to make everyone happy. That is the benefit of working for a larger airline. Some guys want to fly more and some guys want to fly less depending on what is going on in their life at that particular time.

True enough, but the only way everyone will be happy is if AirTran increases their staffing ratio. The trips have to be covered, and they're either covered by reserve pilots or lineholders (buildup or regular). One or the other is going to not get that day off. Refusing ANY reserve day drops is abusing the reserves. Granting reserve drops down to 20+ days off a month abuses the lineholders.

There has to be a middle ground somewhere...

 

[TV9Driver]

Reserve - 15 days off, 75 hr gr. with the ability to pick up trips on your days off.