Airtran Union Board endorses TA w/ qulifications

[gt1900]

just over 2 years... So far, most of the rumors I had heard before, turned out to be just that, rumors... And I have no idea what the retro is based on... I really only looked at the contract for about 2 minutes...

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Wow I'm sorry guys that was an insult to the profession and you. 5% what a Joke. Ask forklift Joe how his pay is doing and all of his options. Very sad

 

[Lear70]

Not even a full month's paycheck for "retro pay"/"signing bonus"?

Lovely.

The 88-seat Scope clause still doesn't rule out a 100-seat jet configured for business class. With 16 business class seats (4 rows), that's an 84 or 88 passenger aircraft (can't remember which right off hand).

Look at the change in work rules VERY carefully... I can't believe anyone is even CONSIDERING concessions in Section 1 or 5.

 

[GuppyWN]

If you are going to send a contract to your membership you don't do so "with qualifications." If it can't stand alone don't send it.

15 year payscales? You got an $8 per hour raise but it's gonna take you 3 more years to get it so is it even a raise?

"at worst case we're back at the table in 3.5 years because of our 6 month opening lead." Say what? Tell you what boys, WN had ONE YEAR lead openings before the contract became amendable. That was September 2005! We're not even close to a contract. Total eyewash.

Before you guys ratify this I'd remember that AA and UAL are looking for 35% raises.

Not my fight but I thought I'd lob one in.

Gup

 

[Lear70]

Guys I hope you don't mind me being a guest on your thread here. I was just wondering a few things about the TA.

Not at all, genuine input is welcome! :beer:

What does the above quote mean, about no more door open/closed for pay? How else does the company propose they calculate it?

Our aircraft have several reports built into the ACARS functions. In addition to main door, it also reports all other doors (service and cargo) open and close, as well as aircraft movement, brake set, etc.

They want to change the pay calculation to start when the aircraft moves back from the jetbridge. This is estimated by a couple guys to be a 2-3% pay cut on a monthly average, sometimes more, depending on what cities you fly into, how many ATL turns you do, and WX delay months (t-storms, etc).

Is the 2:1 duty rig as its proposed now a daily hard credit, a per day prorated trip credit or a daily monthly look back?

Don't know, the full T.A. isn't available yet for general consumption. If early indications are accurate, it's a daily credit look-back which can change if you're re-assigned/re-crewed. Get put on a shorter duty day, get paid less. Get put on a longer duty day, get paid more.

On average, it wouldn't ever increase any of my trips. I did a quick look-back for duty time and was, on average, on duty less than 10 hours a day. In that same analysis I also looked at loss of the 4 hour min day. It would cost me about 2-3 hours per month of pay (approx 5% pay cut) - I bid a lot of trips with 2-3 legs a day and long overnights.

Is the 2% 401(k) match is seperate and addition to the B fund?

Don't know. Been hearing it both ways, one as an add-on to the B-fund of 1.5% and one as a 2% 401(k) match that you have to contribute to get with the B-fund remaining the same. I'll post a comparison here in a couple days when I can see the contract - I'm off for a week and will be taking the time to analyze it in-depth.

I believe your current scope is everything over 70 seats (please correct if wrong) what is the new scope?

That's correct.

Current Scope for 70-seaters and smaller is tied to the number of aircraft we operate. The max is with the company operating more than 100 "mainline" aircraft, they can operate up to 20% as many 70-seat RJ's and smaller.

New scope... standby, data still inconsistent.

Does the new pay table still apply to all 'small narrowbody' flying, with additional premiums for 'large narrowbody' and 'widebody'? If so what are those premiums?

It put the 737-800 and the A320 into the SNB bracket which is a pay cut of 13%.

Other than that, data is still out.

Thanks and best of luck over there whatever you guys decide.

Thanks,,, hoping for a large NO turnout.

 

[Lear70]

If you are going to send a contract to your membership you don't do so "with qualifications." If it can't stand alone don't send it.

15 year payscales? You got an $8 per hour raise but it's gonna take you 3 more years to get it so is it even a raise?

"at worst case we're back at the table in 3.5 years because of our 6 month opening lead." Say what? Tell you what boys, WN had ONE YEAR lead openings before the contract became amendable. That was September 2005! We're not even close to a contract. Total eyewash.

Before you guys ratify this I'd remember that AA and UAL are looking for 35% raises.

Not my fight but I thought I'd lob one in.

Gup

Good lob...

And the 12-year CA pay is currently $152.57. $180 an hour is a $27.43 an hour raise, or about 18%. Sounds good until you look at what COLA is for a 12-year CA...

COLA from the amendable date would make that $152.57 about $166.72 in today's dollars (3 years of COLA raises). So that new $180 rate is an actual 8% increase but it takes 3 years to get there.

Take your $166.72 an hour of what Year 12 pay SHOULD be right now JUST for COLA from the ammendable date, add 3 years of ONLY COLA increases (no real longevity increase, JUST COLA for 3 more years worked), and you get $182.17.

So the answer is no, it's not really a pay raise, it's COLA-neutral.

 

[gt1900]

Lear.. I was told the B-Fund is now at 12.5%.. I didn't hear anything about the 401K matching..

 

[EMBATP]

its what the check says at the end of the week that really counts not the pay rates

work rules scope language merger stuff etc....

 

[Ace McCoy]

confused

I know all this stuff is mostly conjecture but I can't see what we are getting in return for all the things we are giving up.

Giving up so far (allegedly):

1. 4 hour min day
2. 12 hour duty day
3. Door close for pay
4. Scope above 70 seats
5. 15 year pay scale
6. Getting rid of reserve pay system of old

Getting in return?

1. 5% captain pay raise and 10% FO pay raise
2. Increase in 401k or B-fund
3. 4 year duration (not sure if this should be here)
4. ???

I just don't see it. Why give up so much for what looks like so little in return? Either the rumors are way off (I hope) or we are expected to vote the first one down like in 2001.

 

[SkiFishFly]

You forgot Dr's note if you call in sick. That there is enough of a step back to make me vote NO.
OBTW- I have yet to call in sick. I still don't care for this requirement.

I don't like the sounds of the scope. Sounds like the company will get someone to fly 190s with 86 seats and growth will just plain stop for AAI pilots. The company will start the whole process of holding this over our heads for all future negotiations. Is our NC really that stupid?
I think the scope in the current contract is at 70 seats. It should stay there or even drop to 50...

 

[Lear70]

Yes, current scope is 20% of active "mainline" fleet can be 50 seat RJ's.

50-70 seat RJ's are unlimited.

Everything above 70 seats requires that we fly them.

This is plenty of room for the company. I'm certainly not giving them more...

 

[DougCorp-9]

I have to agree. As it stands they can fly 20% of the ASM's with 70 seat AC and below. Higher than 70 seats can be flown by us. Make it the entry level poition and negotiate some reasonable rates. I'm sorry but I can't budge on this one.

 

[michael707767]

I don't like the sounds of the scope. Sounds like the company will get someone to fly 190s with 86 seats and growth will just plain stop for AAI pilots. The company will start the whole process of holding this over our heads for all future negotiations. Is our NC really that stupid?
.

I was thinking the same thing. Are they that stupid? Don't make the mistake the legacy pilots have made. The whole contract hinges on scope. The company would forever be using that to lower your future leverage.

 

[Ace McCoy]

Doctor's note

Just got through the powerpoint and I didn't see anything about a doctor's note. Where is that info coming from and is it just language that says the company may require a note?

Wow that was a depressing powerpoint overall. I seriously am at a loss. I see all the things we gave up but where are the improvements? Moving reserve days off? Holy crap what other "major" does that?

But the kicker is NO Per Diem change? wow. Good thing the concessions at the airport won't raise prices for AirTran pilots...right?

Keeping current book and giving pay raises would have been better than this TA.

 

[Pimpin']

I was thinking the same thing. Are they that stupid? Don't make the mistake the legacy pilots have made. The whole contract hinges on scope. The company would forever be using that to lower your future leverage.

True Dat! Just say No yo!

 

[Eagle757shark]

Just got through the powerpoint and I didn't see anything about a doctor's note. Where is that info coming from and is it just language that says the company may require a note?

Wow that was a depressing powerpoint overall. I seriously am at a loss. I see all the things we gave up but where are the improvements? Moving reserve days off? Holy crap what other "major" does that?

But the kicker is NO Per Diem change? wow. Good thing the concessions at the airport won't raise prices for AirTran pilots...right?

Keeping current book and giving pay raises would have been better than this TA.

I just read through the 66 page powerpoint and didn't see anything either about a Doctor's note. I did see where we can call back on a trip. The emergency sick bank would be terminated and 5 hours accrued sick time per month. I did see where we would get unlimited jumpseats and the 25.00 fee would be deleted. Why didn't they come up with a commuter policy? Every major now has a commuter policy. Where are the stock options and profit sharing?

 

[CitationLover]

pardon my ignorance but how is the non door to door going to be implemented? isn't it still an automatic function of the door shutting and the brake being dropped? perhaps taxi times will increase to make it up if this passes.......

 

[Lear70]

pardon my ignorance but how is the non door to door going to be implemented? isn't it still an automatic function of the door shutting and the brake being dropped? perhaps taxi times will increase to make it up if this passes.......

It doesn't work like the CRJ, doesn't depend on brake position at all.

The main cabin door being closed is recorded by ACARS, regardless of brake position or other doors (service, cargo, etc). It's on the 2nd page of the OOOI screen (Out, Off, On, In).

When the aircraft exceeds a certain speed for a certain amount of time (I'm told it's >4 kts for >3 seconds but nothing in writing), you can see the "OUT" time appear on the ACARS (on the 1st page). This is what they want to use.

Problem is after the main door is closed, the slides have to be armed, cross-checked, flight attendants verify everyone is down, then you run the last of the before start checklist items and request a push clearance.

You're GOING to give up 2-3 minutes at least every single push and, in large cities or with some pax who insist on getting up to get something out of the overhead or a couple bags that show up late, you're going to hit 5 minutes pretty regularly.

Additionally, the flight attendants have a "me, too" clause in their contract. We give this up, and the flight attendants give it up, too, unwillingly and, in all likelihood, pretty unhappily.

It's a lose-lose proposition and does nothing but save the company money.

 

[AFcitrus]

pardon my ignorance but how is the non door to door going to be implemented? isn't it still an automatic function of the door shutting and the brake being dropped? perhaps taxi times will increase to make it up if this passes.......

I for one am planning on maximizing safety by slowing my taxi speed WAY DOWN if this thing passes. With the stress that I will be under the next 7 years, I think it will be of utmost importance to slow down so I can be a safer pilot. This is what ORM is all about - recognizing a potential safety issue and taking preventative action to mitigate that issue. I think at 2 Kts. I should be nice and safe. I know Airtran will back me up when it comes to safety.

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

There is a provision there that if you don't move after 5 minutes with door closed, you start getting paid on minute 6. Who the hell is gonna keep track of that. Are you kidding me?

Just read the PowerPoint....other than we don't charge $25 for jumpseater, I can't find a single thing that I like.

I have worked very hard for this company doing best I can to save them money even during these negotiations. And that's how they value my efforts?

Flash a light at me to show the support....I'll be the AirTran crawling at 5 knots down the taxiway.

Unbelievable!