AirTran TA2

[TV9Driver]

25 RJ's (not really RJs, but rather EMB190s) equals about 300 crew members....about 1/5 of our entire airline!!!!!!!

you are right, they tried this before, with 50 seat RJs that cannot make money. This time around it will be with 86 seat EMB190s that DO MAKE MONEY!!!!! Klaus himself said that we can't compete with JetBlue's EMB190s... the fact that they took away the 100 seat pay scales just means that they have absolutely no intention of having AirTran pilots fly them!! They will be here though, that is a certainty.

Why are people agreeing to a contract that takes concessions from a previous TA that was CONCESSIONARY????????

If you vote for this TA, you are throwing EVERY f/o and every pilot that is or will be on reserve under the bus for your COLA -1% raise. I can see that the Eastern scab mentality is in full effect here at AAI.

One last thing to chew on....

Currently a 4th year Captain on reserve makes about $121,251.60 a year.. (112.27x90 hoursx12 months)

Under the new TA a 4th year Captain on reserve will make $103,185.60 (122.84x70 hoursx12 months).

So over 15% of our pilots will be taking a 30% paycut, but NO, this isn't a concessionary contract!!

 

[fletch717]

Just read the company letter. Fonaro should have said, hey marry my ex wife no no you will love her. she's not crazy I swear.

If the junior guys don't mobilize and get the word out to vote no, this turd will pass.

 

[RadioClash]

Where is the letter from Fonaro? Did it come in the mail?

 

[RadioClash]

Keep in mind that Scarlet is at ASA. No need to waste your time explaining the TA to him or why we should vote no.

Scarlet, go feed your mule.

 

[Lear70]

Did you guys read THE WHOLE contract??

Yes. The whole thing stinks.

There's concessions in almost EVERY section. Which begs the question:

"Did YOU read the WHOLE T.A.?"

Seriously, if you haven't, the full rebuttal will be up tomorrow, and there's over 30 pages of concessions, just for a small amount of pay increases.

Why should we give up concessions in a time of record profitability?

YOU are not southwest (450 aircraft to 130 aircraft) !
If you like SW GO THERE !!!

Actually, Southwest pay, when adjusted for current day dollars, back when Southwest WAS at 130 aircraft, is MUCH higher than this T.A. with drastically better work rules.

But you missed the entire point, which was not that we expected Southwest PAY (which I never have said) but, rather, that we heard positive things about the work relationship AAI management had with its employees and were looking forward to a positive mutual relationship moving forward in the same path that Southwest traveled.

What stinks--you make more than a 777 captain at DAL CAL UAL....

*sigh* Again, are you going to use FACTS, or are you going to tell more LIES? I've had enough of your rants which lack FACTS and have only BASELESS EMOTION. That's right. BASELESS, as in COMPLETELY DEVOID OF FACTS.

Delta max 777 CA pay comes at year 12 at $188 an hour. In fact, it starts at year 1 at $173 an hour. Our Captains can't even make $173 an hour until YEAR 15 at DOS. 3 years from now, our CA's will top out at 181.22 an hour. DAL CA's make that NOW at year 7, and top out at $188. We never get there.

CAL Year 2 Widebody CA is, again, $176 an hour, and our 15-year pilots don't make that NOW. 3 years from now, when our CA's are making $181.22 an hour, CAL Widebody CA's will make $189 an hour. We never get there.

UAL 1st year B777 Captains make $172 an hour, we don't get there until year 15. They cap out at $184 an hour. WE NEVER GET THERE.

Please get your facts straight before you come on here yelling at us.

You don't always get everything in a contract!! It is NEGOTIATING...you get something the company gets something back...THAT is how it works!!! The company is not going to give each and every little demand !!

No, that's NOT how it works. You obviously have never negotiated before.

If a company is profitable, the FIRST thing that is AUTOMATICALLY GIVEN is Cost-Of-Living-Adjustment raises. For EVERYONE. Period. There is absolutely NO reason to have to "negotiate" just to keep your standard of living and CURRENT contract QOL items if the company has been profitable under them.

Once that's done then yes, it becomes a give-and-take. WHY would ANYONE take concessions from their current work rules with a company POSTING RECORD PROFITS? Are you INSANE?

You want new airplanes
You want new buses to ride on
You want a huge raise
You want new tugs
You want more rampers
You want to grow to new cities

I know that is your LIST !!

Who the heck said anything about buses? Or tugs? As long as they work and they're safe, I don't care how old the equipment is. Where did you get that "LIST"?

If airtran wants to hire MESA to come fly 25 aircraft and lose the ability to control those flight when they cancel and can't schedule anything right..AIRTRAN MGT. would be stupid to let someone else run their flights, it would not be long and they would cancel that crap, they tried that already=IT WAS stupid and Airtran MGT saw that!!

You don't get the "big picture" here, either, do you?

Management didn't cancel their agreement for the 50-seaters because they didn't have control, they canceled their agreement because it was UNPROFITABLE with a 50-seat jet.

I have the 50-seat CRJ cost analysis from Bombardier. You cannot run that aircraft profitably on today's yields. You CAN, however, run a 70- and especially a 90-seat aircraft (reconfigured for 86 seats) VERY profitably. Arguably more profitably on a seat-mile basis than the 717.

Ask yourself why ANY management team fights SO HARD for Scope concessions if they really don't want them?

The answer is: "THEY DON'T". The company has a REASON they've pushed so hard for Scope changes. You'd be a FOOL to believe there isn't a Master Plan that doesn't involve anything the company has pushed to change.

I say it will pass by 55-60%.

I'll take that bet. What are the terms?

 

[boxlunch]

Lear,
You have my vote!!! Thanks for the work.

 

[Sunking]

Ran into one of the BOD yesterday. I told him that it was still a no vote for me. I refuse to sign a concessionary TA in years of profitability. He was scared that we had no merger protection, that and the whole thing about the FA's did'nt get any improvement blah, blah blah. We ended on the note that I should not vote with my emotions! Last time I checked FEAR was an emotion. I personally would rather vote on pride and integrity than fear.

P.S Shouldn't we change the Contract 2005 union sticker to UNfirm,UNfocused, and UNfair?

 

[Ty Webb]

I would rather make 150k for ten years than get "industry leading pay" until we shut down.

Those aren't the only two choices.

We're not looking for "Industry Leading Pay". . . . . we work for a profitable company we have helped build, and we want to be compensated as such.

.

 

[Ty Webb]

Just read the company letter. Fonaro should have said, hey marry my ex wife no no you will love her. she's not crazy I swear.

This letter should be a "Wake-up Call" to anyone that thinks that things are going to be better after Leonard and Kolski take their millions and bail out of here . . . . .


.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Ran into one of the BOD yesterday. I told him that it was still a no vote for me. I refuse to sign a concessionary TA in years of profitability. He was scared that we had no merger protection, that and the whole thing about the FA's did'nt get any improvement blah, blah blah. We ended on the note that I should not vote with my emotions! Last time I checked FEAR was an emotion. I personally would rather vote on pride and integrity than fear.

P.S Shouldn't we change the Contract 2005 union sticker to UNfirm,UNfocused, and UNfair?

There is a part of me that wonders if he might be right when he says we might very well end up voting for essentially the same thing in another 18 months if we vote this one down. I especially think we might be in for a long wait if it only fails by a small margin. If it is going to fail - it needs to fail big...

 

[DougCorp-9]

Unitl this pilot group gets together and shows some UNITY, we will continue to get the same crap handed to us.

 

[boxlunch]

Lear,
Again I appreciate all the good work. I'm betting the recall will go through. Also, I haven't spoken to one FO that is for this TA. So, with luck it will be put on ice for six months and then the FO's get you elected as the President of the NPA. I have spoken to quite a few FO's and every FO that I have spoken to really likes what you have done getting the facts out and showing us the Pros and the Cons. Maybe we could work a Virtual base or two that could help the 70% that commute out there. Lear for President.

 

[Lear70]

Virtual bases have virtual rules. As long as the "virtual rules" are ironclad and help us more than hurt, I'm all FOR virtual bases.

The company, however, has heretofore not been very cooperative with any "rules" for a virtual base. If that were to change, I think they *could* benefit the majority of us. It's all in what the company chooses to do.

I appreciate everyone's support; we're all going to need to support each other more and more in days to come. One of my friends in the roadshow today told me that Skipper was STILL telling people that the T.A. Scope provisions are basically the same as current book. No, I'm not kidding.

We have a long way to go to make sure that EVERY pilot knows the truth, so continue to spread the word, pass copies of the 2-page rebuttal bulletpoints to everyone you meet, and hopefully we can educate those who are buying off on the misinformation.

Fly safe!

 

[Murphy]

yeah right skipper. keep living in the closet. new scope courtesy of you. Unlimited turboprops and 70+ 86 seat rjs. 20% of the ASMs for commuter/express jets stayed the same but nothing else. watch our flying/growth/upgrades get farmed out. i hate rjs. i was in pit this trip and it is a rj parking lot. how the mighty cities in the rust belt have fallen. i grew up in pit and it is just depressing every time i fly into that airport.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

One of my friends in the roadshow today told me that Skipper was STILL telling people that the T.A. Scope provisions are basically the same as current book. No, I'm not kidding.

Two days ago he was telling people that the max number of RJ's in the TA is 25...TOTAL.

 

[j41driver]

Two days ago he was telling people that the max number of RJ's in the TA is 25...TOTAL.

I met an FO today that thought that was the case. I didn't ask him where he got that misinformation but I did point him in the right direction.

Vote NO!!

 

[Thunderchief]

Why should we allow ANY flying done by someone other than pilots on OUR seniority list???
Why do we have to accept 25 RJ's or 20 % ASM's?? The scope section should read as follows:
All flying done under the AAI holdings company or an anyway affiliated with Airtran should be flown by pilots on the NPA senority list. Period.

If management doesn't 'intend' to use RJ's this should be an easy sell in negotiations.

Look at Delta, if you were to fly them domestically only, you have a better than 50% chance you would never be on a 'Delta' jet... all RJ's

Is this what we want?

TA2= NO

Fix
SCOPE
Fix
Work rules

QUALITY OF LIFE!!

*sigh*
Ok I feel better, so is running for BOD now?!?!

 

[Murphy]

Why should we allow ANY flying done by someone other than pilots on OUR seniority list???
Why do we have to accept 25 RJ's or 20 % ASM's?? The scope section should read as follows:
All flying done under the AAI holdings company or an anyway affiliated with Airtran should be flown by pilots on the NPA senority list. Period.

If management doesn't 'intend' to use RJ's this should be an easy sell in negotiations.

Look at Delta, if you were to fly them domestically only, you have a better than 50% chance you would never be on a 'Delta' jet... all RJ's

Is this what we want?

TA2= NO

Fix
SCOPE
Fix
Work rules

QUALITY OF LIFE!!

*sigh*
Ok I feel better, so is running for BOD now?!?!

What he said!

 

[ualdriver]

Virtual bases have virtual rules. As long as the "virtual rules" are ironclad and help us more than hurt, I'm all FOR virtual bases.

The company, however, has heretofore not been very cooperative with any "rules" for a virtual base. If that were to change, I think they *could* benefit the majority of us. It's all in what the company chooses to do.

I appreciate everyone's support; we're all going to need to support each other more and more in days to come. One of my friends in the roadshow today told me that Skipper was STILL telling people that the T.A. Scope provisions are basically the same as current book. No, I'm not kidding.

We have a long way to go to make sure that EVERY pilot knows the truth, so continue to spread the word, pass copies of the 2-page rebuttal bulletpoints to everyone you meet, and hopefully we can educate those who are buying off on the misinformation.

Fly safe!

I don't directly have a dog in your fight, nor do I even necessarily know if you're "right or wrong", but I have to say that you're doing an impressive (and tremendous) service for your peers. I hope the Airtran guys get the contract you deserve. Good luck.

 

[Spidey]

I don't directly have a dog in your fight, nor do I even necessarily know if you're "right or wrong", but I have to say that you're doing an impressive (and tremendous) service for your peers. I hope the Airtran guys get the contract you deserve. Good luck.

...Hey UAL...how long ya been with UAL...what'cha flyin...had a really cool guy jump from PNS-ATL on his way to ORD...spent 98-01 workin/livin in Chicago buildin a dispatch for a coupla airplanes when I was in the military...learned a TON about airline issues...and way past TA issues...as a blue collar dude who works his arsz off...what is your unadultered view of what you see on the string...okay, make it...adultered...I had some great times working with yer best dispatchers...went thru the 757 Capt's course too at TK...just wondering about yer outside views...cheers!

 

[ualdriver]

...Hey UAL...how long ya been with UAL...what'cha flyin...had a really cool guy jump from PNS-ATL on his way to ORD...spent 98-01 workin/livin in Chicago buildin a dispatch for a coupla airplanes when I was in the military...learned a TON about airline issues...and way past TA issues...as a blue collar dude who works his arsz off...what is your unadultered view of what you see on the string...okay, make it...adultered...I had some great times working with yer best dispatchers...went thru the 757 Capt's course too at TK...just wondering about yer outside views...cheers!

I don't think I'm qualified to comment on their TA! I barely know my own contract. I'm just glad to see the Airtran guys raising the bar. I know it will be a heck of a lot easier for the UAL group to raise it ourselves (hopefully!) when the guys at Airtran, American, Alaska, and Continental have already set a precedent for us to reach (hopefully).

I guess the question down the road will become- will our anticipated gains be sustainable? Can the industry support these higher wages at the carriers mentioned above (and the others that will follow shortly thereafter) if we have other airlines, particularly the non-union ones (JetBlue, Virgin, Allegiant, Skybus, etc.) rapidly growing and significantly undercutting us? It's doubtful that any of those non-union carriers (and the ineveitable copy cat airlines still on the MBA's spreadsheets) will do much to come up to whatever bar is set by the rest of us. Will a strong economy and maybe even a decline in the overall supply of pilots be strong enough to overcome Age 65 and the new ultra low cost LCC $60-95/hr. Airbus Captains? Are we just setting ourselves up for the same situation that existed in the early 2000's where we had a two-tiered airline pilot pay scale (legacy and LCC) that will ultimately collapse the higher payscale when a catalyst like a failing economy comes into play? We'll see.

 

[Spidey]

I don't think I'm qualified to comment on their TA! I barely know my own contract. I'm just glad to see the Airtran guys raising the bar. I know it will be a heck of a lot easier for the UAL group to raise it ourselves (hopefully!) when the guys at Airtran, American, Alaska, and Continental have already set a precedent for us to reach (hopefully).

I guess the question down the road will become- will our anticipated gains be sustainable? Can the industry support these higher wages at the carriers mentioned above (and the others that will follow shortly thereafter) if we have other airlines, particularly the non-union ones (JetBlue, Virgin, Allegiant, Skybus, etc.) rapidly growing and significantly undercutting us? It's doubtful that any of those non-union carriers (and the ineveitable copy cat airlines still on the MBA's spreadsheets) will do much to come up to whatever bar is set by the rest of us. Will a strong economy and maybe even a decline in the overall supply of pilots be strong enough to overcome Age 65 and the new ultra low cost LCC $60-95/hr. Airbus Captains? Are we just setting ourselves up for the same situation that existed in the early 2000's where we had a two-tiered airline pilot pay scale (legacy and LCC) that will ultimately collapse the higher payscale when a catalyst like a failing economy comes into play? We'll see.

Thanks, good questions that loom on the horizon...good luck!

 

[Lear70]

Rumor control:

No, I have not been fired.

Yes, I have been improperly removed from all flying with a MEDICAL leave tag, even though I had my return-to-work physical with THEIR doctor per Sec 15 on 30-August and was returned to duty. Additionally, they have illegally withheld my paycheck with no explanation, despite several emails and phone calls.

Yes, the Association is working on it, but the company has up to the 27th to make a decision. They have not formally charged me with anything, so I'm not suspended or "on leave pending discipline".

The long and short of it is that, 48 hours prior to me being returned to work and almost a MONTH after my initial injury (25 days), the company's private investigator took pictures of me changing my tire and spraying a pulley with a spray can of lubricant for about 20 seconds. My shoulder was still sore and ached a little, but I wasn't an invalid and 48 hours later their doctor pronounced me fit to fly.

Same idea as you getting a 48 hour flu bug on a Sunday. Your next trip is the NEXT Sunday. You call out sick, 48 hours later the bug has passed, 48 hours after that you're re-hydrated, feeling OK, and mowing your lawn. Should you be sitting in bed for 7 full days until you fly again, or do you think it's reasonable that you might recover a day or two before the next scheduled trip?

All the doctors and physical therapists were THEIR choosing and there's nothing from them that indicates their was any falsification or anything that warrants a level of suspicion enough to have a private investigator violating my privacy. It's obviously retaliatory from my work killing this T.A., helping the recall, and trying to organize the pilot group. I'm certain the calls for me to run for office had more than a little to do with it as well.

The company is spreading this information but neglecting to tell you the timeline of how close it was to me being pronounced "fit for unrestricted duty" by THEIR doctor and the rumors are flying.

The company has up to 30 days from when they could have "reasonably been expected to know of the issue" to formally respond. It's interesting to note that the nomination period for NPA president closes 48 hours prior to this deadline. I may hear back today, I might not hear back until the 27th.

I'm exploring my legal options outside of the NPA and have been in touch with a major law firm who handles these types of labor issues - I have an appointment with them later this week.

I'm extremely disappointed that the company is choosing to pursue something so obviously baseless just to instill fear and intimidate, and it will put my family in severe hardship if I have to spend 4-12 months without a job in the grievance process, but if we don't have our principles, what do we have? I will never apologize for trying to maintain the pay and quality of life for our pilots, and I will fight, as necessary, to preserve the level of pay, benefits, and work rules that we currently enjoy, both for myself and my fellow employees.

Let your coworkers know the truth along with spreading the word on the T.A.

As Mulder always said: "The truth is out there."

 

[BoilerUP]

I'd be absolutely, 100% proud to be a part of any pilot group that includes Lear70.

His efforts and sacrifices should not only put other pilot groups on notice, but hopefully will inspire other pilots in those groups to become advocates themselves.

 

[Ty Webb]

We're all with you, Lear.

The Company's behavior in this regard is cowardly and shameful.

If they fire you, I'm going to press the winner of the coming election to hire you either as a Consultant to the NC or as an actual Negotiator . . . and why not? You're more knowledgeable about this Contract than any of the BOD or the staff attorneys.

There is nothing preventing you from performing this function, and it would be sweet irony if the Company found themselves back at the table with you, but without you being constrained by being an employee.

.

 

[DairyAir]

Hey Lear

Flew yesterday and the captain said he had talked to Floy and he mentioned that a first Officer had been fired for allegedly rotating tires on his car while on medical leave with a shoulder injury. The captain sounded like he was on the company's side. I thought it might be you so I set him straight on the whole story as well as made him read the TA2 rebuttal as well as the TA1 rebuttal start to finish before he made his judgement. He changed his mind.

It is sad that the company is resorting to these kinds of strongarm practices and I fear what lies ahead. We as a pilot group now more than ever need to stand together and get what we deserve.

It does not stop at you Lear another pilot a captain got fired for writing up too many planes in the last few months, I guess his average shot up and that was just not okay for someone to write up something. I believe there were alot of writeups for dirty windows or something. So clean the windows and get on with it. We'll see how this one turns out.

Anyway just thought everyone should know how the chief pilots office is spinning this thing with our man Lear and to stick up for him on the line.

DA

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas Guys,

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Lear.

Lear's situation, while aborrant, is typical for companies in heated negotiations.

It's known as "taking hostages", and you can bet the company will used Lear's situation as barganing leverage if the TA fails.

If the TA does fail, you can bet your company will be looking for many more. Best advice is to play the straight and narrow and keep copious records of each and every situation.

Nu

 

[craigdash8]

Listen up, NPA! Everybody on the seniority list needs to know about this.

Lear 70 knows what a contract is supposed to look like and he is trying to educate others here who have never seen one. Our management has validated my point by harassing him because they are afraid of him and his knowledge. The last thing anyone in MGT wants is for someone to open the eyes of the masses here about just how bad our CBA and this ridiculous TA are.

NPA, you should direct everyone to Lear's site so they can see a real objective and educated view of our current TA and make it common knowledge that MGT doesn't want them to know what is really going on at the table. There is no better way to protect him from this transparent attack.

Unbelievable.

C.

"the enemy of my enemy is my friend"

 

[mnboyev]

Wow..... bums me out... not surprised at all... Ya got to be teflon if your gonna fight.....Y'all know that !!

They fired the Hotel fella for just trying to improve our Hotel standards... He got a little too 'vocal' and WHACK.....Hmmm....

Who's next.... The flogging will continue until we cave in... I think it just solidifies our resolve..

Oh... it is believable.... standard practice... I wish they spent the same kind of attention on fixing some our operational problems...

What ever happened to the PAB? (Pilot Advisory Board) Have'nt heard or seen them do anything? Maybe it never came to be?

 

[cl65capt]

Is it time start printing some "Free RM" stickers?