Airtran Scheduling cost company millions

[Citrus531]

I like clr's idea of having some pilots come in and observe one day. Both SOC in MCO and even ATL Ops and then maybe some of the complaining would go down. Each side could communicate ideas, plans,etc....even if it didn't work it would be nice to try.

From an ops perspective, a good majority of the pilots I talk to on the bus, on the concourse, in the crew room, don't know where operations even is. One Capt said "I thought you guys were still downstairs below C"...I kindly inform them we moved out of there in August of 2005 and that's the inflight offices...another said "Oh you're in D-tower? Are you ramp control also?".......Another one-"oh, you're actually up in the tower with windows? I though you were inside the tower but couldn't see the planes on the ramp".

The few Senior guys who give new hires the tower tour show them that we have people looking at connections, plotting, talking on inrange, ramp coordinating, coordinating with Cust Serv, talking with our Vendors like Skyclean, etc, etc,etc

Bottom line...with the industry the way it is and with the fact that AirTran is hunkering down for a rough ride this fall and into next year, it'd be nice if we could focus on continuing making this airline into something better instead of moaning/bitching about this or that all the time.....scheduling has it's problems, planning does, ops does, flight crews do, management does but I say overall, we're positioned to make it.....It's definitely come along way from the early days with the -9's and 732's.

 

[BSkin]

Citrus531,

I addressed this on another thread, why are we poorly-prepared when there are wx issues/ diversions? Is it gates? Is it the amount of rampers, as the problems usually occur late? Is it poor planning? Is it lack of reserves? Is it a combination of all of the above?

We are the only ones holding out for gates in adverse wx conditions, sometimes more than ten planes. There has to be a way to address that situation.

 

[Ty Webb]

I like clr's idea of having some pilots come in and observe one day. Both SOC in MCO and even ATL Ops and then maybe some of the complaining would go down. Each side could communicate ideas, plans,etc....even if it didn't work it would be nice to try.

The problem, from where I sit, is that when things go to hell in ATL, there isn't anyone "on the ground taking charge". Someone needs to get out of the tower, and come on down to where the action is, gate by gate, and see what is, or isn't going on.

Case in point- during a recent thunderstorm meltdown in ATL, I was sitting in an empty aircraft, waiting at the gate for nonexistent F/A's, while an IB plane was waiting for my gate, and another OB crew was waiting for the IB who was waiting for the gate.

I called Ops and suggested they push me off the gate (we were empty), let the IB park, deplane, board, and push, then I would taxi back in. . . after all, I wasn't going anywhere for quite a while.

Common sense? Yep. Was it approved? Nope. End result? We waited 4 hours for a FA, the IB waited over two hours on the ground, and the OB crew probably "timed out" waiting for their aircraft.

This is just one example, but my point is that the system doesn't work well enough when we go to irregular ops . . . we don't recover nearly well enough. Something needs to change, in a big way.

Along the same lines, there has been a tremendous improvement in the Ramp operation (rampers). Things really started changing a couple of years ago, and I have been very impressed by the new operation. We spend almost no time waiting for marshallers, waiting for push crews, waiting for bags. The pushback crews are polite on the interphone, and it is a world of difference from just a few years ago. Whoever was responsible for making those changes happen should be recognized and rewarded (what a concept).

 

[Eagle757shark]

To you dispatchers and ops guys that get on here and tell us pilots we don't understand well, that is part of the problem. This is the environment that has been created here at AirTran. No one wants to listen, but instead everyone wants to get defensive and feel like their space has been compromised. The thread was about the waste in scheduling not about dispatch and ops! Get on the phone sometime and listen to how these schedulers will purposely violate the contract that has been agreed to between management and the pilots union. Listen to how one particular supervisor in scheduling constantly misuses her authority and misinterprets language that is pretty clear in black and white. No one is trying to make this an issue about dispatch and ops. This is an issue with scheduling and their constant misuse of their resources and it should be exposed. Many of the pilots here at AirTran are coming from other carriers, many of which are a lot larger than AirTran. They have seen scheduling systems put in place that aren't as disfunctional as AirTran's. The number one issue that most pilots and flight attendents have here is transparency! Like all the other major airlines, it would help if you could see who is on reserve daily. Why is that such an issue here? No other airline I've worked for had that problem. We always hear the words or see the words on FLICA "Insufficient Reserves", well prove it show me! Let me see who is on reserve daily, and how is scheduling using those assets. This is just one example of many! If a department is costing this company millions of dollars because they are misusing their resources, it should be accountable! There are a lot of good ideas out there that could bring the groups together to run a very good operation. However, the environment here has been not to listen but to blame one another instead of working together.

 

[clr4theapch]

Eagle, It was not my intent to divert blame to dispatch and ops, however in the SOC, as I remember it, crew sched is 15' away from the dispatch desks, their supervisors and the crew coordinator.. conversations are many time overheard in that small room..
I hear what your saying.. the dispatcher has a regulated interest in your times, however the systems does not provide time nor the visability to crew times..

My point it everyone that controls everything is in that room.. their needs to be a method set up to bring daily and real time concerns to the attention of the supervisors and CP via the dispatchers since they are in many cases directly with you.. like your example above..
Make a suggestion.. it's everyones job to look for ways to survive and save money..

 

[Eagle757shark]

Eagle, It was not my intent to divert blame to dispatch and ops, however in the SOC, as I remember it, crew sched is 15' away from the dispatch desks, their supervisors and the crew coordinator.. conversations are many time overheard in that small room..
I hear what your saying.. the dispatcher has a regulated interest in your times, however the systems does not provide time nor the visability to crew times..

My point it everyone that controls everything is in that room.. their needs to be a method set up to bring daily and real time concerns to the attention of the supervisors and CP via the dispatchers since they are in many cases directly with you.. like your example above..
Make a suggestion.. it's everyones job to look for ways to survive and save money..

Many of the things that are happening with scheduling are occuring during normal operations. The problem is no one wants to listen to suggestions to improve and make a better operation. Many have tried to be told otherwise. There are a lot of bad things happening because of the current contract talks and too many people taking things personally on both sides. Again, scheduling must be held accountable for the waste they bring to this airline and people need to stop making excuses for their incompetence!

 

[Lear70]

I addressed this on another thread, why are we poorly-prepared when there are wx issues/ diversions? Is it gates? Is it the amount of rampers, as the problems usually occur late? Is it poor planning? Is it lack of reserves? Is it a combination of all of the above?

I'm sure not much has changed in 11 months, and I've seen the same thing again and again. I asked one time the obvious questions, one of which you asked as well:

1. Why are we not tankering enough fuel when the weather is obviously going to crap?

I was told that some bean counter somewhere decided that it was cheaper to divert on a limited basis than tanker fuel. Even on days it was obvious were deteriorating quickly.

2. Why are we not pairing F/A's and Pilots on the same trips, especially in the summer and winter months, when there is a much greater chance of an IROP day so that, as Ty Webb pointed out, you don't have one crew's pilots sitting on a taxiway waiting for a gate while your F/A's are on board a loaded plane waiting for you and, therefore, can't get out of the way for you to get in, and vice-versa.

I was told that it allowed the company to retain fewer F/A's year-'round to have their lines different than ours and built to exceed 8 hour flight days on a regular basis. Again, "allegedly" cheaper than the delays and cancellations associated with an IROPS day.

We are the only ones holding out for gates in adverse wx conditions, sometimes more than ten planes. There has to be a way to address that situation.

I'm pretty sure ASA and Comair pair their F/A's and Pilots on the same flying lines, and DAL usually has enough extra gates to "shuffle" if they need to. Our gate allotment is STUFFED to where every arrival is within 10 minutes or so of a departure, which is why we wait for gates more than anyone else.

My personal best is 3 hours, 48 minutes on a taxiway after arrival, waiting on a gate...

Along the same lines, there has been a tremendous improvement in the Ramp operation (rampers). Things really started changing a couple of years ago, and I have been very impressed by the new operation. We spend almost no time waiting for marshallers, waiting for push crews, waiting for bags. The pushback crews are polite on the interphone, and it is a world of difference from just a few years ago. Whoever was responsible for making those changes happen should be recognized and rewarded (what a concept).

Absolutely! Cool to hear that some things ARE improving...

Eagle has a point, although I believe it's more of a systemic problem at the top of the department than the workers in it. How many threads have we read recently where there's only one or two schedulers on duty because the other saw IROPS coming and said, "No way am I going into THAT mess tonight", and called out?

If a department is so messed up where the employees don't even want to come to work when things go bad, I submit that something needs to change at the management level...

Personally, I think B-Skin's idea of having a MANAGER tracking weather to put an "IROPS tanker fuel program" into effect, when required, so that ONLY those days carry the extra fuel AND Planning building "paired" F/A and Pilot lines during Summer T-storm and Winter Ice Ops months would go a LONG way towards fixing these problems, at the minimum cost possible TO fix them.

But, then again, God forbid management act on pilot input...

 

[clr4theapch]

You all speak the truth... as I remember it and at other airlines I have been with, management seems to somehow feel threatened when someone, anyone not just pilots bring up an idea for improvement.. this causes many to just come do their job and leave.. Most people dont want anything to do with crew sched because of the immediate griff and confrontation that comes with asking (or telling) a crew member to go to work out of normally scheduled lines..

So don't feel bad there my feathered brethren, all of us are sort of in the same boat..

If there were never IROPS then dispatch and scheduling would have a pretty boring job, airlines by there very nature are consumed by IROPS and all who work in it should embrace it, plan for it as normal operating procedures.. it just never seems to run this way.. Crews should expect to get moved around to cover time outs, diverts and such.. its the nature of the beast..
Management need to get there collective heads out of the sand and listen to their people, respect them for their ideas, have meetings to work out a process and put it to work.. but.. there is always the "But".. too many empires...

 

[Citrus531]

Citrus531,

I addressed this on another thread, why are we poorly-prepared when there are wx issues/ diversions? Is it gates? Is it the amount of rampers, as the problems usually occur late? Is it poor planning? Is it lack of reserves? Is it a combination of all of the above?

We are the only ones holding out for gates in adverse wx conditions, sometimes more than ten planes. There has to be a way to address that situation.

This is why I suggest that some crews come up to C and D towers on a bad night and see the BS we go through. Gates are a huge issue. Beyond the gates we have on C and the few on D we use all the time, we have to call EVERY day to TBI and ask which ones we can use. When we call for E gates as well, it's normally "I don't have anything for you" before we even speak a word. I think the flight scheduling is to blame because they expect that putting 2005 departures all over the place with scheduled 2010 arrivals won't cause problems and before you know it, a plane has called for mx, got a hold for late pax, etc....and when pilots get on the ground for an occupied gate and start making suggestions about this E gate or D7 or D11(because we use it during the day as one guy said to me)...it's frustrating because we make 1000000 phone calls a day about what we can and can't use....Midwest won't let us use D7 from this time to this time...or Spirit needs D9 now or Northwest wants D11a at this time and this time but you can have it for 30 min for ONE freakin turn....it's a ton of politics and begging going on

Ramp will have some staffing issues at times, especially on the weekends.....and in terms of other airlines not holding out, I disagree and say this isn't true. ASA Ops in C-tower is a mess at times...and that's on good days. One of their problems is they never call the feds to hold planes off the ramp and before you know there's 12 RJ's on ramp 4. Same thing with Delta on ramp 3...you get a couple 75's or a 767 and a bunch of ERJ's and CRJ's holding for spots and it's a mess...I see this 5 days a week...

The ramp controllers get fed up with them quickly. We try to be proactive when there is bad weather and use the fed tower phone to advise them of our gate situation when our planes land so that we don't have a congested ramp, our planes in gates at the time won't be blocked when they're ready to push and then we can either ACARS or SELCAL an a/c holding for a gate to tell him he can start moving over.

And as for Eagle's comments, I'm sorry if this began to "waste away on OPs and dispatch".....I was just trying to give some perspective from my area of work....which does somewhat relate to scheduling of flight crews.

So overall, it's not poor planning on our part all the time...it's just a million factors coming together all at once causing a traffic jam....we bust our a$$ everyday to set up gates, get pax to their flights, make sure planes are getting catered, etc,etc...Atlanta is a cluster f*ck and it doesn't matter if you're Delta or AirTran, you will have holds for gates, you will have a ton of diversions for bad wx, you will have a ton of rampers call out sick....nature of the beast for the world's busiest airport in my opinion....

 

[nck4857]

Is it true that we got fined something like $30,000 for using Air Canada's gate for too long one of these nights?