AirTran Road show Pairings

[Lear70]

Some how I bet all you guys havnt even gone to the show, do what you will and no Im not a senior guy. Good Luck.

Yes, I have.

Twice.

And they absolutely COULD NOT answer the questions I put to them with other than, "You're right, that's a concession" or "You're right, there's nothing keeping them from doing that."

The only thing they can say is, "We don't *THINK* they'll do that."

Sorry, that's just NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Put it in writing. If you can't, then I'm not interested, as I can't take "we don't think they'll do that" to arbitration during the grievance process.

Incidentally, why are you so closed off to opposing opinions? Why have you made up your mind getting only one side of the story? Why don't you read this, then read the contract again side-by-side with the analysis in this link, then let us know how you answer these issues:

http://home.earthlink.net/~lear70

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Nope, He's not a senior guy, just a management SHILL.

 

[BFL370]

Well I do have some differnt points of vew, but you disagree with me so be it.

 

[Lear70]

Arent Omni, ATA and World now owned by one holding company, so are Polar and Atlas and none are being combined.

They're not being operated under one name for common carriage, that's the link.

If a carrier purchases another company and combines the operation under one name for the purpose of common carriage, then single carrier petitions work, there's about half a dozen precedents in the last 5 years.

AirTran has made way too many public statements and SEC filings saying they intend to do away with the Midwest name and operate everything as AirTran to get away with operating them separately. Lots of federal laws prohibiting a public company from making statements to sneak a purchase through then change later how they intend to operate it.

Citation Lover got me thinking about it, and an ALPA buddy in Herndon who does this for a living put me on this research track with the above results. He's not concerned and neither am I; our merger protections in our current CBA aren't perfect, but they're good enough for the way AAI has set this up with Midwest as a purchase and "merger".

 

[Lear70]

Well I do have some differnt points of vew, but you disagree with me so be it.

And I understand your point of view, the pay rates are actually "decent", not great, weighted heavily towards the top 1/3 of the seniority list, but at least "possibly livable" if they hadn't screwed Scope, Insurance, Work Rules, Reserves, New-Hires, and Retirees...

I appreciate you at least looking at the countering arguments I've presented, and of course, you are always welcome to vote your conscience, it's a free country...

My main point is that current book is better than what is proposed, as it threw too many people under the bus and doesn't have enough protections built in. It's not the end of the company, just the end of this round of negotiations.

Time for round 2. :beer:

 

[BFL370]

I so trust ALPA, not. You keep saying the company can do what ever it wants with the contract, they can do the same and not Merge MEH, but do a code share. They can then transfer assets (Eastern/Continental) this Mgt has done that before.

 

[Lear70]

I so trust ALPA, not. You keep saying the company can do what ever it wants with the contract, they can do the same and not Merge MEH, but do a code share.

How do you do a "code share" with a company you own?

AirTran Holdings has made public statements and filed documents with the SEC stating they WILL merge Midwest with AirTran operationally once the purchase/merger is complete.

They are legally BOUND to that.

Once we are operating as a combined entity in name, we can file a Single Carrier Petition with the NMB, and EVERY CASE PRECEDENT with a combined carrier with one name in the last 5 years shows that we will be successful which forces the company to integrate seniority lists.

Our current Section 1 has a paragraph that reads almost identical to the proposed T.A. in how we will integrate that seniority list.

The risks are very small that Holdings could even attempt to whipsaw us, it takes about 24 months instead of the 18 that the T.A. gives us (which is the only down-side of staying under our current CBA - loss of 6 months time to integrate), and the proposed T.A. DOESN'T BIND THE HOLDING COMPANY ANYWAY.

It's AirTran HOLDINGS that's purchasing Midwest. Not AirTran Airways, and we do NOT have a letter binding the holding company to this merger language. Completely useless language without it...

Oh, and by the way, I don't trust "ALPA" as an entity, either. I have 13 open grievances from my last ALPA carrier unresolved after 5 years (they remain open even after you leave) and they really screwed up by letting Scope out of the bag (yet here we are considering doing the same exact thing after decades of experience that should have taught us better).

I do, however, trust my friend who sent me a bunch of those links to the NMB rulings, and the NMB rulings don't lie.

 

[CitationLover]

Well my Tybert, get your head out of the Hustler and power down the Media player with the gay porn and understand it is not the 717 guys who could be hosed but you and me, becasue if the 717 is replaced (would take years) you could also see the senior guys would go to the 737 and 717s to Midwest and you and me will be E190 FO's or Capts on reserve. That is just as plausable but possible under this contract and we could do NOTHING about it. That is a fact, but think as you will.

you're wrong. management is dishonorable to push everything to MEH, but are honorable to make great schedules? wtf are you smoking?

single carrier status fixes what you describe.

don't buy the BS.

 

[CitationLover]

Arent Omni, ATA and World now owned by one holding company, so are Polar and Atlas and none are being combined.

they are being operated separately. as lear pointed out, Joe has already stated publicly midwest will fly AS air tran. the eastern transfer of assets to continental is precisely what the single carrier status protects you from. look, mesa air group, if they had the patience before signing their crappy contract, WON theirs when ALL new jets were being transferred to freedom (the very situation you describe).

 

[Ty Webb]

If you really are a line pilot at AAI, pull out your Contract 2001 and look at it, instead of just posting random thoughts and fear-mongering. . . . I'll give you a little hint- it's under "Scope" in the sub-sections referencing "Transfer of Assets", "Common Asset Control", "Code Share", and "Merger".

 

[CitationLover]

If you really are a line pilot at AAI, pull out your Contract 2001 and look at it, instead of just posting random thoughts and fear-mongering. . . . I'll give you a little hint- it's under "Scope" in the sub-sections referencing "Transfer of Assets", "Common Asset Control", "Code Share", and "Merger".

don't let some facts get in the way of a good argument.......

 

[Just thinking]

Do not forget that they are looking at an Ab Initio program to bring the best to the right seat and lock them in the seat for 5 years

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Do not forget that they are looking at an Ab Initio program to bring the best to the right seat and lock them in the seat for 5 years

Thats funny. You said the best.:bomb:

 

[Lear70]

Thats funny. You said the best.:bomb:

You know, we laugh about that, but it may not be such a far-fetched idea.

If this thing were to pass (which I don't think it will), and they got rid of all the 717's and replaced them with Embraers at a 40% pay cut and lengthened everyone's upgrade by 3-5 years, you'd see a mass exodus of 1-3 year F/O's out the door.

The company got away with it back in 2001 with the DC9's going away and displacements back to 717 F/O because there was simply nowhere else to go.

Now, all the majors are hiring or will be within a year, and our F/O's predominantly have 7-10k hours, half of which is turbine PIC and a lot of friends at other carriers.

Most of us came here from the regionals for the work rules and quick upgrade. Take that away, and a lot of guys will seek greener pastures, and you'll be left with no one but low-time regional guys applying, and the ab-initio thing might sound a lot more tempting to staff the RJ's...

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

no, i was just laughing because he said AB are the best.