Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[AlbieF15]

In reality, no matter what happens, those hard feelings are going to last until every last guy retires, or in some cases, is dead.

No place is the same after a merger.

Nu

I am rolling at the truth in that statment. There are still bitter feelings with some guys at FedEx about a merger 21 years ago.

I'll be honest. I know some great guys at SWA. I know some great guys at Airtran. However, I don't think many of the SWA pilots...especially those junior guys...ever "chair flew" in their mind what a merger would look like or do to their careers. Despite some stern lectures and tongue lashings from some stock option millionare captains, I think the age 65 and merger have created two, and perhaps now three SWA groups...the haves, the have nots...and the new guys. And I think the days of ever having the one team mentality are probably lost. Age 65 started that...this will be another nail in the coffin. Southwest will be a good airline, but it will be a very, very different airline than what we knew in the past.

Good luck. I mean it.

 

[General Lee]

Again, an emotional arguement for relative seniority with no facts. Relative seniority unfairly rewards the smaller pilot group giving them unearned seniority. Your top 10% pilots would achieve unearned 12 years of seniority (AAI wasn't even in existence and they were earning seniority) your middle 50% guys would earn 5 years of unearned seniority. Please address that fairly with facts and not emotion.

RESPECTFULLY, that isn't how it works. Arbitrators will decide what is fair, and what is not fair. If you are a 10 year FO at SWA, you most likely would NOT be put ahead of a 10 year AT Capt, since he probably has a higher RELATIVE seniority that you do. That doesn't mean that the number 30 AT Captain will be number 60 total at the new company, the arbitrators will figure that out. Both sides will have attornies (get the DL attorney from the DL/NWA SLI btw---he is worth it) and they will argue points to the arbitrators. So, there is NO reason to be saying who will be where, since you are not arguing that to the arbitrators anyway. SO, RELAX my PALs!

Regardless, ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE, and I know things are gonna work out for all of you. If you can be nice to someone or something, do it. If you are walking down an alley at night and see a roach, pick him up and gently put him in a trash bin. He is probably hungry and there is more food in there for him to nibble on. It will make you feel GREAT! See ya!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[kc81900]

You both need each other than, fine, fair is fair.

Airtran guys don't have to buy a superior contract with their seniority numbers, they can negotiate it on their own without a JCBA. Their already in mediation in section 6 negotiations. Fairly easy to get released shortly after the date of corporate closing with demands for contract parity. I'm sure the mediator wouldn't blink and SWA wont take a strike over something their going to have to give up regardless.

Look, you all are the same, flying your own pax in similar gauge equipment. SWA is making more today than AAI, but there's no guarantee that pay disparity would have existed 5, 10, 15 years from now. It's probably all going to come down to a slotted category/status ratio integration, maybe some longevity thrown in if SWA has significantly more retirements in the future.

Well as we all know AAI would not get a SWA contract. you are three contracts away from a SWA contract and at that time SWA would be three contracts further. Just due to the fact that SWA has 20 years on you. You wouldn't even have gotten an alaska contract if you would have you wouldn't be on the verge of striking. You think your about to be released wishful thinking the upcoming elections yea thats what washington wants this election season. On top of that your not getting released now. You seem to think your section 6 will go as you plan this your first contract negotiation?

 

[General Lee]

Big fences make good neighbors. Allows things to settle down while merging the operations for the beginning. Everyone "keeps" what they could hold and the growth is "managed" to keep things in the proper ratio. Who knows how many years it will take..... 3-6???? Many of our current routes for AirTran will go away (HSV-UTM-HVQ and some other gems that made you scratch your head....)
Maybe we can get some real management to control growth into markets that will really generate revenue.... bump up CLT go back to CHS and many other possibilities to have an impact that Airtran was never able to accomplish due to the poor frequency.
Great folks on both sides and I pray for a peaceful resolution.

RESPECTFULLY, Airtan has the largest planes on order currently, 40 738s. If there are fences and higher paying planes, the AT pilots would get them first, since their company ordered them, and that is what the arbitrators would say too. How about a 5 year fence on all 738s for the AT guys? You could also fence down the 717s, but they hold almost the same amount as the 735s, so the rates would be pretty darn close. That sure would fence out a lot of ATL and MKE for the SWA pilots. That is how arbitration and fences work. Do you really want that MY BEST FREINDS??? No, you don't, if you don't have to. PEACE AND LOVE MY BROTHERS!!! PEACE OUT!


Regardless, ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE. DARN IT ALL, YOU GUYS ARE REALLY COOL. And, if you have some time tomorrow, try to do something nice for someone or something. If you see a Mom struggling with her 5 kids while trying to put groceries in her Mercedes SUV, ask her if you can help her out. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[kc81900]

You could turn this around and say YOU were never guaranteed that YOUR upgrade wouldn't be pushed back due to age 65, a merger, recession, etc...You're right, "you are never guaranteed to maintain any seniority level."

Yes I agree with you. However AAI pilots have posted numerous times about there upcoming upgrade, there career expectations, there top 10% seniority etc.... I have no problem with AAI getting integrated into WN list. Where does it say a merger guarantees anyone a seniority windfall? Your saying I wasn't guaranteed any of these things fine then show me were AAI pilots are guaranteed to still get these things do to a merger.

 

[General Lee]

So what you are saying is that Southwest has added about 1700 MORE pilots in the same time period?

I agree.

Gup

RESPECTFULLY, Delta had 2000 more pilots than NWA, and Delta had the bottom 200 or so pilots in the SLI because they were hired after the announcement of the merger. The size of an employee group means nothing. Anyone around at either airline when the merger was announced will be mixed in. There will be SWA and AT pilots at the bottom. BUT WHO CARES, RIGHT? YOU ARE ALL GREAT PEOPLE, AND YOU WILL WORK FOR A GREAT DOMESTIC AIRLINE. THAT IS AWESOME!

Regardless, I think ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC! If you have a chance tomorrow, do something nice for someone if you can, like help stabilize an injured motorist who was just rearended at a stoplight. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jonjuan]

super seniority gaining is some cases 5+ years seniority.

seniority doesn't = longevity.

 

[vv100]

I'm willing to let every AT guy have exactly what they have Today.

Same pay, same benefits, same domiciles, same retirement, same seat, etc.

But if you want to come play in this sandbox you will need to give up something.

So what are you willing to give up?

Serious question.

 

[General Lee]

I'm willing to let every AT guy have exactly what they have Today.

Same pay, same benefits, same domiciles, same retirement, same seat, etc.

But if you want to come play in this sandbox you will need to give up something.

So what are you willing to give up?

Serious question.

RESPECTFULLY, are you the arbitrator? You have no right asking for anything. SWAPA will have people fighting for you, and ALPA will have people fighting for AT. The ALPA attornies are pretty good at this by now, after going through it a couple times. The AT guys don't have to give up ANYTHING. Just go with your attornies and see how it plays out. It may drive SWA guys nuts, but that is Arbitration for you. AND ALL OF YOU NEED TO CHILLAX! YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO GET ALL SPOOLED UP FOR NOTHING. GO WITH THE FLOW MY BROTHERS!

Regardless, you guys are ALL FANTASTIC PEOPLE. Hear that? FANTASTIC FRIENDS OF MINE. If you have a chance tomorrow, try to do something nice for someone. If you see a guy hanging from a ledge by an arm, give him a hand, and then a hug. See ya!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Cobra17]

If you have a chance tomorrow, do something nice for someone if you can, like help stabilize an injured motorist who was just rearended at a stoplight. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

I heard you rearended some dude in India last week and didn't have the courtesy to pay for his ride home.

 

[GuppyWN]

Now that's how you set up a joke.......... and that's how you deliver it!

BAM!

 

[huronip]

RESPECTFULLY, Airtan has the largest planes on order currently, 40 738s. If there are fences and higher paying planes, the AT pilots would get them first, since their company ordered them, and that is what the arbitrators would say too. How about a 5 year fence on all 738s for the AT guys? You could also fence down the 717s, but they hold almost the same amount as the 735s, so the rates would be pretty darn close. That sure would fence out a lot of ATL and MKE for the SWA pilots. That is how arbitration and fences work. Do you really want that MY BEST FREINDS??? No, you don't, if you don't have to. PEACE AND LOVE MY BROTHERS!!! PEACE OUT!


Regardless, ALL OF YOU ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE. DARN IT ALL, YOU GUYS ARE REALLY COOL. And, if you have some time tomorrow, try to do something nice for someone or something. If you see a Mom struggling with her 5 kids while trying to put groceries in her Mercedes SUV, ask her if you can help her out. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

Am I reading this wrong? It looks like SWA has 116 Firm orders through 2016 with and additional 37 options through 2017. How does Aitrans 40 come close to this?

Scroll to the bottom and read for yourself:
http://www.southwest.com/investor_relations/if_quarterly_earnings.html

 

[vv100]

For the love of all that is holy Gen you were an irritating rash under my sack ten+ years ago on here.

It's just so, so sad that you are still here while the rest of the graduating class went to college, got a job, got married and had a couple kids. Yet you are still here..ALL THE TIME.

Kinda creepy man.

Regarding your post, I agree.
Let's bring it ALL to the table.
Let the AB decide.
That's where it will end up anyway.

I was just curious if ANY AT pilot would be willing to actually negotiate anything..

So how about you let them answer for themselves?


Have a DELICIOUSLY DELIRIOUSLY DANDY DELTA DAY DOOD!!

 

[vv100]

Am I reading this wrong? It looks like SWA has 116 Firm orders through 2016 with and additional 37 options through 2017. How does Aitrans 40 come close to this?

Scroll to the bottom and read for yourself:
http://www.southwest.com/investor_relations/if_quarterly_earnings.html

Because they are EXTRA SPECIAL ones that we would be unable to pay for with 1.4 Billion+ dollars in cash.

Well that's what i heard anyway...

Seriously guys beers are on me when you get here, unless I'm still "THE FO"..then your a$$ is buying

 

[General Lee]

For the love of all that is holy Gen you were an irritating rash under my sack ten+ years ago on here.

It's just so, so sad that you are still here while the rest of the graduating class went to college, got a job, got married and had a couple kids. Yet you are still here..ALL THE TIME.

Kinda creepy man.

Regarding your post, I agree.
Let's bring it ALL to the table.
Let the AB decide.
That's where it will end up anyway.

I was just curious if ANY AT pilot would be willing to actually negotiate anything..

So how about you let them answer for themselves?


Have a DELICIOUSLY DELIRIOUSLY DANDY DELTA DAY DOOD!!

RESPECTFULLY, I am still here because I ENJOY IT. I do plenty of other things in my day, but I check in a few times because I actually enjoy it. Do you not like it when people do things they enjoy? Sure, I enjoy other things too, but I can't see why I wouldn't return to things I enjoy. That wouldn't make sense? And while you were rubbing your sack I have had plenty of life changes too, most I have not shared, which is by choice. I have gotten really senior though, and go to great places when I want, and I am fairly close to Captain on a plane I want to fly. ALL GOOD FOR ME. Kinda Creepy you say? I say it is relaxing, and to me that matters. I don't mind what you think, primarily because now you ARE MY BROTHER, MAN!!! YOU GUYS ARE AWESOME!!!!

Regardless, you guys are FANTASTIC PEOPLE. PEOPLE WHO ARE VERY NICE, ALMOST ALL THE TIME. And if you have a chance tomorrow, try your hardest to do something nice for someone, like not telling people the ending of the movie Titanic. See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flycatcher99]

I am a senior AAI f/o within 6 months of upgrade here. I have a few questions...

why do SWA pilots call AAI pilots going to SWA pay rates a windfall?

Because a $100,000/year pay raise would generally be considered a fairly decent windfall, unless you're certifiably insane.

Are you not enjoying that same windfall?

No.

I am guessing that a lot of SWA pilots were hired from the regionals where they were working at substandard pay. Isn't this also a windfall for you - making a great salary at a good company? Why would you begrudge AAi pilots also working for these pay rates?

Because when I got my windfall, it was considerably smaller, and I started at the bottom of the list. Not somewhere in the middle above other guys who were hired at SWA before me.

Are SWA pilots paying AAI pilots salaries? Are they "losing" something if AAi pilots are on the same pay rates? Then why do some act like this is a gain for AAI pilots and a loss for SWA pilots?

Because an acquisition has to be "fair and equitable" for both sides. You're gaining lots of money and great benefits. I'm gaining a much longer wait for upgrade, if it happens at all anymore due to the fact that this merger IS our growth for the foreseeable future, and thus I'm losing money over my career. A lot of money.

Secondly, like I said earlier, I am a senior f/o (been here 6 years) and was looking at upgrade within the next six months. If I upgrade I will be a Captain making approx $135-140k a year at AirTran. If I am not allowed to upgrade (due to a less favorable integration) I would still be a F/O, making approx $130-140k a year and have my upgrade put off 5-10-15 ? years at SWA. My question is, how is that a "windfall"? Captain, 135k or F/O, 135k, and a 5-15yr upgrade....

You're not a captain now. You are an FO. When you come to SWA, you will be an FO making $100,000/year more than you are now. Please see above definition of windfall. If you have upgraded by the time you come over here, you will in all probability be pay protected, regardless of whether you fill a Captain seat or an FO seat, so you have lost no money. You're still making your former Captain salary (if not more under SWA's payscale.)

I am hopeful that this will resolve itself in a professional and amicable manner. After going through this once before with TWA, I know better than to think that the best in human nature will rise to the surface. I don't want to take away anything from my new SWA brothers - in fact I want to work hard to make sure that everything gets better for ALL of us. But please don't try and take away from me and tell me it's what I deserve.

No one is taking away from you. Folks are giving a lot to you. Please don't try to take away from me while you all reap all the benefits of this deal, when Air Tran is the acquiree and SWA is the acquirer.

Which reminds me, if you went through this before at TWA, then you are probably aware that it is the liberal senator in Missouri that changed the rules of the game and made an acquisition the same as a merger, and thus you have little to worry about here. You'll be well taken care of.

 

[scoreboardII]

but I check in a few times

Few? 14300 is a few checkins?

 

[jbDC9]

I'm willing to let every AT guy have exactly what they have Today.

Same pay, same benefits, same domiciles, same retirement, same seat, etc.

But if you want to come play in this sandbox you will need to give up something.

So what are you willing to give up?

Nice ego you have there dude. Me, me, me, mine, mine, mine. I got mine, so go get yours somewhere else...

How ironic that when talking about the US Air/AWA mess, most people (except the Easties) seem to agree that ratioed integration is the way to go... but with SWA/AT? Looks like quite a few of the SWA guys here are saying No ratios, no windfalls for the AT guys, what are you gonna give up, what are you bringing to the table, etc... silliness, really.

 

[yoyoma]

T45 and Co..
Can someone from SWA explain to me why relative seniority is such a bad deal for you?
i mean.. do you really think that airtran is going to come in and get better then relative seniority and you are going to get worse? That means worst case you will be right where you are today, only with future growth.
I understand the upgrade times might be delayed.. but which side will now face a longer delay?
This is a lot different then buying (F9) a company in bankruptcy and shrinking and trying to preserve jobs. -I for one prefer the DAL/NWA model over the LCC/AW one.

i'll tell you why. you guys COULD NOT get hired at Southwest! we could, and did, and now you want us to be junior to you? no thanks.

 

[yoyoma]

love that that airtran pilots are pushing for arbitration.