Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[CoolSidePillow]

Says to me if we(SWA pilots) don't get at least a descent
bump in seniority this would be a windfall (sp?) for the AT pilots. Am I wrong? Better pay benefits QOL job security days off bases. What is our windfall?
Respectfully
Fr8

Texas is just North Mexico. You can keep that cesspool

 

[CoolSidePillow]

Maybe you didn't read my post, but for many AirTran pilots, FO would be a pay cut, for some it would be a very substantial pay cut.

AirTran just had it's most profitable year ever, and has 50 aircraft on order, for growth. We don't need this merger, far from it. We're growing and hiring RIGHT NOW . . . .

Now, if you want to pay me 10th yr CA pay to fly FO, that's different, but don't tell me I should downgrade and take a pay cut to be a SWA pilot. If you don't understand that, then we don't have anything to talk about, do we?

10 year cpt at AAI is 144
10 year fo at swa is 141 accourding to APC. Crying over 3 dollars an hour? Really? Really?

 

[Fly-By-Cable]

What was the hire date of SWA pilot with 2100 seniority number?

 

[macdu]

Compare this industry to the real world. In a buyout hypothetically speaking lets say ( microsft buys apple ). Do you really think that all jobs would be preserved? Usually the aquiring company calls the shots. So why is it different for this industry. Because it is now a federal law, that's why.

 

[BILL LUMBERG]

Let's see....

SWA career expectations.....Cattle car 737s to 60+ cities....
Airtran career expectations....737s with First class seats international.....

Airtran guys need a fence on all international flying.....:laugh:


And you guys are fighting?? Nobody better pull the 737-800 is Super-Premium flying and you haven't even received one yet like some of my new brethren.

SWA boys and gals need to drop the "chosen one" attitude and realize its all about business and not the LUV.

 

[scoreboardII]

Exactly! Business like, we'll all have party when it's over, but for right now, your CEO said:

"(AirTran had) done a lot with not much in terms of financial resources, but that it was becoming less clear that AirTran had the ability to grow and remain competitive in an industry where the size of a carrier's route network is increasingly important."

You can keep the international, I like my bed.

We'll keep the seniority bump, you get scope protection, $800,000 career earning bump, you can keep ATL and 717's for 3 years, everyone will fly everything for one rate, and you don't have to out on strike.

 

[Lear70]

Good Morning,

1st, there is no "self-help". What are you going to do as an F/O? Call in sick? Stand on the brakes so the CA can't taxi? WTFO?

Wow, no kidding. That term was being used in a generic sense. Meaning the world is grey, not black and white like you are stating.

OK, just making sure, because unlike in person, you can't read someone's "tone" or "intent" on here.

2nd, the General is absolutely correct in using the NWA/DAL merger/acquisition as a baseline for comparison. Why? Because that's what an arbitrator is going to do.

In reality, it will probably be Frontier/Republic that will be the baseline for this arbitration.

Why do you think so? Frontier was in dire financial trouble and had been bleeding red ink for years. AirTran is not. All the difference in the world.

On the contrary, from what I'm hearing, your SWAPA colleagues proposed something quite untenable for the AirTran pilots today. They are hard at work to represent your best interests, as are our representatives from the AirTran ALPA MEC. It's an opening position, and it's negotiations. Like you said before, it's business, not personal, although your vitriolic post makes me suspect it *IS* rather personal for you.

By your "I'm all knowing and superior" tone, I can say the same about you. But, I will take it down a notch. It's easy to post when your ticked off. Doesn't change my position though.

I'm not asking you to change your position; I'm asking you to realize that it's not ALL THE PILOTS AT AIRTRAN trying to come to your front door and demand to have the master bedroom, the TV remote, and you keep paying the mortgage and mowing the lawn. I hate to see the acrimony this early in the game, that's all, when at the end of the day, a deal will be struck somewhere in the middle or an arbitrator will PICK a deal somewhere in the middle, we won't get to be in the driver's seat for it, and *WHO KNOWS* how that will end up. I would prefer pilots from both sides who know each other's respective groups find something equitable. Am I dreaming? Maybe. But I think it's doable, if both sides recognize that BOTH sides bring something to the table.

p.s. Yeah, I get that a lot; because I write very formally, it comes off condescending. It's not intended, my apologies. My demeanor in person isn't nearly as formal (when my coworkers meet me after years of reading the union work I've done and things I've posted on the message board, I get a lot of "you're not like I imagined you".)

July 2011. Yes, that's right, about 10 months from now. Why? That's easy.

Now that truly is funny! Its could take 6 months to iron out the transition agreement with the company. When we finally do start at SLI negotiations you think we will go from start, to completion of Arbitration in FOUR months. Now that is truly interesting. No, impossible.

Well, we don't START SLI negotiations 6 months from now when the final paperwork is signed, DoJ review is done, etc, we started SLI negotiations YESTERDAY and probably will continue to meet and negotiate over the next 4-6 months as the deal is finalized. That means, on DoS, if we feel we are at a stalemate, we could immediately invoke the arbitration provision of Bond-McCaskill... or we could have come to an agreement with the SWAPA Merger Committee and it could happen BEFORE a year from now.

The timeline isn't perfectly linear - many things can overlap each other.

You cannot force AirTran pilots to work on a B-scale indefinitely.

I never said that. I said if QOL is all your truly worried about, a "B" scale solution can probably be worked out in everyones favor. I realize that will never happen, just calling BS on some of the posts written by Airtran guys.

Yes, there's been some things written on both sides of the table that are either written in fear or grandstanding, just the nature of the beast. I didn't pick up on (nor do I think many others did) that you were being facetious about the B-scale idea. Glad to know you were just trying to make a point.

The General was spot-on in his previous post: the AirTran pilots will start enjoying the benefits of the Southwest contract and you could wind up with a MUCH WORSE position in an SLI than negotiating it.

I could not agree more. Your Airtran guys are the ones touting pay raise and relative seniority. Your a moderator, go back and read some of the posts on this subject.

I have read every post in this (and the other) threads. The pay raise isn't being touted, it's just a fact of life. There's not a way to avoid that, in reality. As far as the rest, what do you expect? You have a few Southwest pilots saying that just because your management made a business decision that your pilots should automatically INCREASE their seniority at the expense of the AirTran pilots. For a carrier that was on the verge of bankruptcy (Frontier), IN Bankruptcy (ATA), or outright shut down, that argument might have merit. However, for a company that was doing JUST FINE on its own, it is simply an argument that doesn't apply.

Likewise, demanding that the #1 AirTran guy be slotted right next to the #1 Southwest guy, the #2 AAI next to the #2 SWA, etc, isn't going to fly over there, and the VAST majority of our pilots know it. If we had that, it would make our entire seniority list senior to half of your TOTAL pilots.

At some point, you have to separate the money side of the issue and realize that relative bidding position for schedule, days off, vacation, is in many ways JUST as much of an issue as the money once you're making a certain income level. We also have to realize that we *ARE* going to be making quite a bit more money, and that to keep peace in the family, it's going to have to be fair. It's a delicate balance, and as has been said many times before, "A successful merged list pi$$es *EVERYONE* off". An exaggeration, for certain, but one that has a basis more in reality than not.

None of us want that. We are happy that this is happening, most of us have a lot of friends over there that we are looking forward to working with again. We have been fair with other airlines when we were in the driver's seat, we simply ask that you extend us the same courtesy.

That will happen, but you will have to be willing to give some as we give. All these things (pay, qol, schedule, work rules) that you are about to benefit from, we have worked hard to secure over the years. If you think it was easy to do, I ask why we are not taking your pay rates?

I think you will find the majority of AAI pilots are more than willing to give a little, but that doesn't mean we're interested in a staple job for a large part of our list, either.

We are still playing a little catch-up over here. Your M&A committee has not only the advantage of having been given advance notice by your management that this was coming and ours wasn't, but your M&A committee also has been through this rodeo (albeit fairly quickly and unsuccessfully) with Frontier fairly recently. I imagine our Merger Committee will meet with yours quite a bit in the months to come and we'll see what they come up with. Just trying to keep this board civil, realizing that a vocal few who are aggressive and hostile don't represent the whole... on EITHER side of the table.

 

[FNG320]

It really shocks me that Airtran pilots believe that they will get up to a $70,000 a year pay raise and keep their relative seniority and not give up anything to the Southwest pilot group. Really?

Here is a thought. The Southwest pilot group sits on negotiations for the next, lets say, 7-8 years. We already are making nice money, plus a possible variable raise and a negotiated fixed raise coming in the next few years. We are doing fine, and Airtran pilots can give up over 500+K of lost income. That extra cash would be nice, but I'm sure the QOL is really what you want. You can be the North pilots, we will take South(west).

Now, maybe, you could be reasonable, and take the huge financial windfall and give up some seniority to get it. I doubt it. Just a thought.

I am sure glad that 4 out of 5 of our Negotiating Committee are First Officers.

My bet is a Arbitrator. But I wouldn't be fooled by your union into thinking this windfall will be easy, or fun. Might want to hold off on the high fives for a little while.

Have a wonderful day.

Spoken like a SWA pilot.

First, I would bet that AirTran as well as SWA pilots both have merger protectection in their CBAs. Most likely requiring them to be treated fairly. (Allegeny-Mohawk kind of language)

Second, The SWA pilots did not get a say/vote on this merger, unlike the Frontier one. Thus it is two equals merging (regardless of size).

Third, Mcaskill-Bond will require an arbitrated settlement if the two cannot agree to a merger.

If you look at USAir Nic award and how Delta/NWA merged as a starting point, both used relative seniority as a basis, a relative percentage among similar types (wide body, narrow body, etc). Thus Top 1% at SWA remain top 1% in the combined company, Top 1% at AirTran remain top 1%. Your relative seniority percentage remains the same before and after the SLI.

Yes, AirTran pilots should get a excellent pay boost as well as improved schedules, work rules, benefits, etc. That is just the nature of the beast, but they should not have to give up seniority in the combined company for it. They did not choose the merger, managment did. A fair SLI is for everyone to keep the same relative seniority before and after.

Just my opinion........

FNG

 

[Diesel-9]

I would bet on it going to arbitration. Luv ego will probably prevail in negotiations with no deal. Bottom half of SWA seniority list career progression gets nuked. Welcome to the industry. You are now bigger and more vulnerable. As my Thai girlfriend used to say, "G*d Dam*!, You So Big!" Rots of Ruck with this deal.

 

[scoreboardII]

Good Morning,


PILOTS AT AIRTRAN trying to come to your front door and demand to have the master bedroom, the TV remote, .

Wow just a darn minute, but then again, if you can figure out how to get the DVD player to work, you can have the remote.

Your M&A committee has not only the advantage of having been given advance notice by your management

Lets be real here, our team knew when they were called at 6am Monday, just like your guys, they had no clue.