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Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

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rajflyboy said:
Important web sight for those Air Tranny folks that want to merge with SWA pilots.

http://higherpoweraviation.com/
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Should not be required. They were hired and AirTran did not require such a rating. Thus when SWA bought AirTran, they got the pilot group "as is" with or without type ratings.

Most likely you will see that SWA training will have to include a type ride as part of the Captain upgrade syllabus, which might increase SWA's need for a few extra FAA approved check airmen.

In addition, any attempt to force the AirTran pilots to get a type rating on the 737 at their own expense will defintely hurt any sort of unity that SWAPA says they want out of the pilot group. It would become Orange book vs Green book.

Just my opinion......

FNG
 
Dan Roman said:
From the sidelines it sure looks like some of the SWA folks on here are doing their best to sink that "SWA culture" All this talk about staple, "we are better than you" etc will sink the place. Piedmont and USAir were two of the best airlines in the industry back in the 80's, until they merged that is. Absolutely amazing that there are SWA F/O's on here that seem to think they should be taking over some of the AirTran Captain positions.
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Excellent point.

What too many in this industry forget is that "seniority" only exist becuase of CBAs, Contracts, or becuase the comany established it. There is no labor law/rule that creates senioirty. In addition, seniority in this industry is strickly based on your position among your peers, inside of your specific group. Thus seniority at SWA is based on different players than seniority at AirTran. That is why SLI is so important. "Mixing" these two groups using pay, DOH, etc is not a true for fair mixing. The pilots from both group have to be fully mixed to have a fair integration. There must be an equal blending of both group from #1 to #10,000 to be fair. Otherwise, someone is getting an undue advantage at the expense of the other group.

That is why a percentage integration, with relative seniority is the best and fairest method. Yes, you might have a 6 year AT guy equil to a 10 year SWA guy. However their percentages remain the same before and after. Their relative chance for upgrades and career expectation remain the same. Yes, the AT guys will see a big pay boost and improved work rules, but that is not, should not and cannot be used to push down one group over the other. Yes, AT gets a boost, but no one at SWA is pushed down. They remain level while you give a boost to your fellow/former Airtran pilots.

(remember DAL/NWA had some pretty large DOH type issue too, upwards of 10 years different becuase of the BK at DAL and the large number of senior pilots who took early retirement/lump sum and left, thus making DAL a much younger company. In this merger/SLI, basically a percentage SLI was used with some fences to protect the pilots. Most percentage of most pilots before and after the SLI had the same relative seniority (percentage), within a percent or so, and this was thru binding arbitration also)

Just my opinion......

FNG
 
That is why a percentage integration, with relative seniority is the best and fairest method. Yes, you might have a 6 year AT guy equil to a 10 year SWA guy. However their percentages remain the same before and after. Their relative chance for upgrades and career expectation remain the same. Yes, the AT guys will see a big pay boost and improved work rules, but that is not, should not and cannot be used to push down one group over the other. Yes, AT gets a boost, but no one at SWA is pushed down. They remain level while you give a boost to your fellow/former Airtran pilots.
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That's funny right there!

Just my opinion...
 
Whataburger said:
Start thinking of a nickname for yourself when a PHX Cernel introduces himself as Hollywood. I go by "Flashlight." So, that's taken.
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Hmmmm, I'm sure I have a few nicknames already, I just don't know what they are. ;) .

Maybe I could go by "Mag-lite" if that's still available, or "6 volt lantern" or just plain "6 volt". Definitely not "penlight" or "Mini-mag".

Hmmm, this integration thing is going to be more complicated than I thought :laugh:
 
Red Baron said:
That's funny right there!

Just my opinion...
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Hi Red Baron. RESPECTFULLY, it won't be that funny for you when it actually happens. There were guys at Delta that were hired in 2007 that were placed ahead of NWA pilots hired in 2000. It went pretty much relative, with anyone getting hired after the announcement of the merger being on the bottom by themselves. It's called precedence. Arbitrators use it all the time. It gives them an excuse not to start something themselves. Your lawyers will fight for your side, and the ALPA lawyers will fight for AT, and then it will be decided by those arbitrators, and then you can blame them. If your airline is twice or three times the size of AT, then a ratio wil be used to keep everyone within 1 or 2 % points of where they are in relative order. I still think the top 300 or so spots will go all SWA because SWA was formed earlier than AT(Valujet), but since the airlines are the same (LCCs, profitable) with the same planes, and both bring something important to the table, a relative merge after those top 300 pilots is probable. Look for a Joint contract to be done prior to the SLI so everyone can be on the same pay page, and then HARMONY. YOU GUYS WILL ALL THINK IT IS AWESOME AFTER THAT POINT, (and when you get over the shock)

Regardless, YOU ALL ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE. IT WILL BE A PLEASURE TO FLY NEAR YOU GUYS, even if you have to be warned about my wake turbulence. And, if you have time today, try to do something nice for someone, like helping an elderly passenger by giving her carry on bag to that young punk standing near her on the curb. They know each other, right? See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
GL,

Thanks for the response. I have a friend there at Delta who I spoke with a few days ago about the integration. He was hired in 2000, and very informative. I was involved in a merger prior to Mohawk-Alleghany, so obviously this will be different. I do disagree with you on some specifics about where our guys will be placed. In the end, it is out of my control, and for that matter, most pilots of both airlines. If it goes to arbitration, so be it. I can still laugh about the outcome though. Then, I will deal with it.

RB

PS...Thanks for the warning on your wake. We don't get that in LBB. It is all new to us here at the "small Texas airline."
 
Red Baron said:
GL,

Thanks for the response. I have a friend there at Delta who I spoke with a few days ago about the integration. He was hired in 2000, and very informative. I was involved in a merger prior to Mohawk-Alleghany, so obviously this will be different. I do disagree with you on some specifics about where our guys will be placed. In the end, it is out of my control, and for that matter, most pilots of both airlines. If it goes to arbitration, so be it. I can still laugh about the outcome though. Then, I will deal with it.

RB

PS...Thanks for the warning on your wake. We don't get that in LBB. It is all new to us here at the "small Texas airline."
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Oh come on now buddy, don't short change yourself. YOU GUYS ARE FANTASTIC. And, you will be flying 737-800s, so finally you will fly a plane that COULD accidentally hit the tail if you over rotate on takeoff and landing. Whatever you do, don't do that! It will lead you right to the sim. (I haven't done that yet, though!) :)

Anyway, you are RIGHT, you have no control over the process. There will be plenty said by both sides, with hurt feelings for awhile, but then the arbitrators will come up with the decision, and then you can blame all of your woes on the ARBITRATORS. See, you don't have to blame the Citrus pilots, you can blame the arbitrators and your own lawyers. There you go. After a couple years together, it won't even become a major discussion during dinner at a layover, especially after you say "Hey, I am a corndog, are you a critter?" Once you get that out of the way and both of you know which page you are on, then it gets easier, and you don't just start yapping in the cockpit stuff like "Those DAMN lazy Southern boy Critter pilots, they don't know our procedures" or "I flew with a Corndog Captain last trip who went to the Air Farce Academy, and he was so into himself, and he called himself "Iron Eagle 1"......." You want to know who is sitting next to you before you open your mouth and say something that would disturb the "culture" for the trip..... Other than walking on eggshells a bit, it will be AWESOME. And just think, you can show those Critters beautiful LBB, and they can introduce you to Flint and Tunica. THAT WOULD BE COOL.


Regardless, you ALL ARE FANTASTIC INDIVIDUALS. REALLY. YOU GUYS SHOULD ALL BE ELECTED TO THE COOL PILOT HALL OF FAME. And, if you have time tonight, try to do something nice for someone. Maybe hand the valet at the restaurant a $5 bill before he parks your car, and tell him something nice, like "See, not getting your highschool diploma DOES have it's advantages!" See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
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Lear70 said:
Which is why AirTran pilots will never agree to DOH.

Taking away 25% of our Captain's seats and giving them to Southwest F/O's is definitely something arbitrators would consider a "windfall". No one should lose their seat over the deal.

Like I said, it'll be fair, or it'll go to an arbitrator. Anything else is just typical FI message board banter. I trust our MC implicitly, as I've flown with and known two of them for over a decade, one of the other two had my back during the ALPA merger, and therefore they have my full support and trust.
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:beer: Beers on me Lear!
 
Yeah, well, wouldn't be the first time I ate my words...

Guinness with a shot of Jameson dropped in the middle of it, please. :)
 
I love sea lawyers...

who don't know the difference between $hit and apple butter lecturing us on precedence. Was it precedent or precedence?

You mean it's not the same thing?

BTW as far as crediblity...GL...bubkes.
 
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Lear,
As many as you want...
And if we're blessed by some of our better looking talent (not as good as it used to be) vanilla vodkas til presentation.
 
Guinness with a shot of Jameson dropped in the middle of it, please. :)
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I believe that is called an Irish Car Bomb...
 

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