Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[livintheredream]

1. Shock
2. Fear
3. Acceptance

We are all following the play book. Hopefully it will go as well as DAL/NW but remember it is business. Also dont forget you get ATL. I know some dont give a rats AZZ about it but it will play a big part in SW growth in the international markets. We didn't show up to the game without a ball. Remember, forum guys are usually not to rational. Just very emotional. ( Generally Speaking)

 

[FDJ2]

Actually, your wrong both swa and aai want this transaction. This isn't a hostile takeover. AAI wants this transaction (needs (your words)) just as much as SWA. AAI does not want to be left out of the post merger airline industry. SWA was going to buy someone and AAI wanted to be that someone. I can guarantee you AAI was very much pursuing this deal. AAI would be trying to buy SWA if it had the money.

Oh yeah, you don't have a birth right to someone elses contract. Call the SLI the cost of a superior contract. AAI pilots will realize $1.5 million more in compensation over a 25 year career thanks to southwest pilots. Who is (buying) who's career!!!!!!!!!!

As for AAI pilots argument to growth, aircraft orders, upgrades that is all a mythical creature doesn't exist until its on property and you are in the seat and even then it can all go the other way in a very short period of time. None of that is ever guaranteed we all know that. You can be growing hand over fist one month and all that can be cancelled in the blink of an eye. That argument simply doesn't hold water. You have no right to that left seat just ask usair pilots even pre merger. AAI is profitable and growing (yes) for how long no one knows not even a AAI pilot.

You both need each other than, fine, fair is fair.

Airtran guys don't have to buy a superior contract with their seniority numbers, they can negotiate it on their own without a JCBA. Their already in mediation in section 6 negotiations. Fairly easy to get released shortly after the date of corporate closing with demands for contract parity. I'm sure the mediator wouldn't blink and SWA wont take a strike over something their going to have to give up regardless.

Look, you all are the same, flying your own pax in similar gauge equipment. SWA is making more today than AAI, but there's no guarantee that pay disparity would have existed 5, 10, 15 years from now. It's probably all going to come down to a slotted category/status ratio integration, maybe some longevity thrown in if SWA has significantly more retirements in the future.

 

[doh]

Compare this industry to the real world. In a buyout hypothetically speaking lets say ( microsft buys apple ). Do you really think that all jobs would be preserved? Usually the aquiring company calls the shots. So why is it different for this industry. Your CEO ( airtran ) decided to sell your company. This crap happens everyday. The average JOE what he asks himself is ( will I lose my job? ) But Joe the pilot says ( dont F with my life and schedule and pay. ? ) come back to reality. Go ask any pilot on furlough and ask him where he would like to be right now. With a pay increase at a major airline that actually cares about their employees along with better schedules rigs etc. or sitting at the bottom of an RJ carrier with a REAL CRAP PAY AND SCHEDULE. Forget your superior forcasting abilities about how you r supposed to upgrade and how life is going to be so good once we sign our contract. Blah blah blah. I have heard this all to well at my previous carrier, who had also had in there contract a stipulation to Guarenteed number of aircraft ie 160. their contract is now flushed down the toilet and half the number of aircraft. IF A pilot group is set to gain X, then to be fair, you need to give B pilot group
something of equal value to them. You cant expect to gain everything and give up nothing in return. Your smoking the wrong pipe.

You can't compare this business to the real world. Nobody in the real world has to start over at the bottom of the pay/vacation/seniority heap to change jobs. Like the guy before said, you ain't gonna create an aha moment for anyone. Stand by your committee, let the arbitrator rule, then fercrissakes get over it and don't have a usapaian meltdown!

 

[Britpilot]

You both need each other than, fine, fair is fair.

Airtran guys don't have to buy a superior contract with their seniority numbers, they can negotiate it on their own without a JCBA. Their already in mediation in section 6 negotiations. Fairly easy to get released shortly after the date of corporate closing with demands for contract parity. I'm sure the mediator wouldn't blink and SWA wont take a strike over something their going to have to give up regardless.

Look, you all are the same, flying your own pax in similar gauge equipment. SWA is making more today than AAI, but there's no guarantee that pay disparity would have existed 5, 10, 15 years from now. It's probably all going to come down to a slotted category/status ratio integration, maybe some longevity thrown in if SWA has significantly more retirements in the future.

There you go talking good sense, that won't work on FI. You should know better.

 

[T45Flyer]

I'm not asking you to change your position; I'm asking you to realize that it's not ALL THE PILOTS AT AIRTRAN trying to come to your front door and demand to have the master bedroom, the TV remote, and you keep paying the mortgage and mowing the lawn. I hate to see the acrimony this early in the game, that's all, when at the end of the day, a deal will be struck somewhere in the middle or an arbitrator will PICK a deal somewhere in the middle, we won't get to be in the driver's seat for it, and *WHO KNOWS* how that will end up. I would prefer pilots from both sides who know each other's respective groups find something equitable. Am I dreaming? Maybe. But I think it's doable, if both sides recognize that BOTH sides bring something to the table.

p.s. Yeah, I get that a lot; because I write very formally, it comes off condescending. It's not intended, my apologies. My demeanor in person isn't nearly as formal (when my coworkers meet me after years of reading the union work I've done and things I've posted on the message board, I get a lot of "you're not like I imagined you".)

I'm with you. I hope that we have a SLI that will be equatible to both sides. I don't want to work with pissed off Airtran (soon to be Southwest) guys and you don't want the reverse. Hopefully the company will throw in some sort of bribe to make this all go easier. I would bet dollars to donuts that any Captain that loses his seat would be pay protected. Thats is what the company has offered in the past and I think they want this deal even more. Lets shoot for prosperity for all.

 

[Fubijaakr]

As someone with no dog in the fight, here's the most fair and equitable way to integrate these two lists:

1. No bump, no flush. You hold your current base seat position until YOU bid out of it.

Since straight ratio would be a HUGE windfall for Air Tran guys, a better method of SLI would combine DoH and ratio. (Disclaimer: I know DoH isn't a component of either ALPA merger/frag or Bond/McCaskill, but hear me out.)

Air Tran's #1 Capt. has a 1993 hire date. So ALL SWA pilots hired prior to 1993 would be placed on the list. After that the first AAI pilot. Then, since there are 3.5 SWA pilots for every AAI pilot, 3 SWA pilots are listed. Then the next AAI pilot. Then 4 SWA pilots, an AAI pilot, 3 SWA pilots and on down until the list is sorted.

It would be a windfall for ANY AAI pilot to be slotted before a 1993 SWA hire. And given the no bump/no flush all current AAI Captains would maintain their left seat.

Granted, all the AAI pilots would get a salary windfall, but SLI deals with SENIORITY windfalls not monetary ones. To suggest that a bump in pay equates with sending AAI guys to the bottom of the list is a non-starter.

Of course you'd have to sort the list and adjust the ratio if there is a seniority bulge anywhere along the line.

 

[Bringupthebird]

That's a longevity integration, not seniority. Seniority is relative by definition. Hasn't US/AWA trainwreck taught you anything?

 

[TV9Driver]

I am a senior AAI f/o within 6 months of upgrade here. I have a few questions...

why do SWA pilots call AAI pilots going to SWA pay rates a windfall? Are you not enjoying that same windfall? I am guessing that a lot of SWA pilots were hired from the regionals where they were working at substandard pay. Isn't this also a windfall for you - making a great salary at a good company? Why would you begrudge AAi pilots also working for these pay rates? Are SWA pilots paying AAI pilots salaries? Are they "losing" something if AAi pilots are on the same pay rates? Then why do some act like this is a gain for AAI pilots and a loss for SWA pilots?

Secondly, like I said earlier, I am a senior f/o (been here 6 years) and was looking at upgrade within the next six months. If I upgrade I will be a Captain making approx $135-140k a year at AirTran. If I am not allowed to upgrade (due to a less favorable integration) I would still be a F/O, making approx $130-140k a year and have my upgrade put off 5-10-15 ? years at SWA. My question is, how is that a "windfall"? Captain, 135k or F/O, 135k, and a 5-15yr upgrade....

I am hopeful that this will resolve itself in a professional and amicable manner. After going through this once before with TWA, I know better than to think that the best in human nature will rise to the surface. I don't want to take away anything from my new SWA brothers - in fact I want to work hard to make sure that everything gets better for ALL of us. But please don't try and take away from me and tell me it's what I deserve.

Good luck everyone. I look forward to working with all of you.

 

[vixin]

I am a senior AAI f/o within 6 months of upgrade here. I have a few questions...

why do SWA pilots call AAI pilots going to SWA pay rates a windfall? Are you not enjoying that same windfall? I am guessing that a lot of SWA pilots were hired from the regionals where they were working at substandard pay. Isn't this also a windfall for you - making a great salary at a good company? Why would you begrudge AAi pilots also working for these pay rates? Because you wont start at the bottom of our list like we all have. Are SWA pilots paying AAI pilots salaries? Thats just stupid. Are they "losing" something if AAi pilots are on the same pay rates? Yes the senority you will bypass. How many trannies have come to SWA the last several years. We have some in the pool even. Why do you think that is? Then why do some act like this is a gain for AAI pilots and a loss for SWA pilots? Because again you will bypass the bottom of the list. Of which we all started on. The majority of AAI will see a huge increase in pay. Dont forget all the other benefits we have you dont.

Secondly, like I said earlier, I am a senior f/o (been here 6 years) and was looking at upgrade within the next six months. Maybe maybe not. You never know until you are upgraded. If I upgrade I will be a Captain making approx $135-140k a year at AirTran. If I am not allowed to upgrade (due to a less favorable integration) I would still be a F/O, making approx $130-140k I would say 140-160 would be a better guess. Not working that hard a year and have my upgrade put off 5-10-15 ? years at SWA. My question is, how is that a "windfall"? Captain, 135k or F/O, 135k, and a 5-15yr upgrade...You would be the very small percentage not seeing a huge increase, but remember our benefits, qol and work rules are better.

I am hopeful that this will resolve itself in a professional and amicable manner. Me too After going through this once before with TWA, I know better than to think that the best in human nature will rise to the surface. I don't want to take away anything from my new SWA brothers - in fact I want to work hard to make sure that everything gets better for ALL of us. But please don't try and take away from me and tell me it's what I deserve.

Good luck everyone. I look forward to working with all of you.

What is fair in your mind. Why should a 7 yr tranny go ahead of our 10 yr SWA guy? I know because of ATL.

 

[texman]

I am a senior AAI f/o within 6 months of upgrade here. I have a few questions...

why do SWA pilots call AAI pilots going to SWA pay rates a windfall? Are you not enjoying that same windfall? I am guessing that a lot of SWA pilots were hired from the regionals where they were working at substandard pay. Isn't this also a windfall for you - making a great salary at a good company? Why would you begrudge AAi pilots also working for these pay rates? Are SWA pilots paying AAI pilots salaries? Are they "losing" something if AAi pilots are on the same pay rates? Then why do some act like this is a gain for AAI pilots and a loss for SWA pilots?

Secondly, like I said earlier, I am a senior f/o (been here 6 years) and was looking at upgrade within the next six months. If I upgrade I will be a Captain making approx $135-140k a year at AirTran. If I am not allowed to upgrade (due to a less favorable integration) I would still be a F/O, making approx $130-140k a year and have my upgrade put off 5-10-15 ? years at SWA. My question is, how is that a "windfall"? Captain, 135k or F/O, 135k, and a 5-15yr upgrade....

I am hopeful that this will resolve itself in a professional and amicable manner. After going through this once before with TWA, I know better than to think that the best in human nature will rise to the surface. I don't want to take away anything from my new SWA brothers - in fact I want to work hard to make sure that everything gets better for ALL of us. But please don't try and take away from me and tell me it's what I deserve.

Good luck everyone. I look forward to working with all of you.

I don't think we are trying to take anything from you. I have been at swa under three years. I will make 120k+. My friend is a 7th year fo and is going to make 170k. You will be amazed by our flexibility to make money and still have 15 days off a month. It's little things like this that are valuable to us. You will see when you get here. It's all good.