Airtran Pilots, Don't buy that new house yet..

[General Lee]

That's funny right there!

Just my opinion...

Hi Red Baron. RESPECTFULLY, it won't be that funny for you when it actually happens. There were guys at Delta that were hired in 2007 that were placed ahead of NWA pilots hired in 2000. It went pretty much relative, with anyone getting hired after the announcement of the merger being on the bottom by themselves. It's called precedence. Arbitrators use it all the time. It gives them an excuse not to start something themselves. Your lawyers will fight for your side, and the ALPA lawyers will fight for AT, and then it will be decided by those arbitrators, and then you can blame them. If your airline is twice or three times the size of AT, then a ratio wil be used to keep everyone within 1 or 2 % points of where they are in relative order. I still think the top 300 or so spots will go all SWA because SWA was formed earlier than AT(Valujet), but since the airlines are the same (LCCs, profitable) with the same planes, and both bring something important to the table, a relative merge after those top 300 pilots is probable. Look for a Joint contract to be done prior to the SLI so everyone can be on the same pay page, and then HARMONY. YOU GUYS WILL ALL THINK IT IS AWESOME AFTER THAT POINT, (and when you get over the shock)

Regardless, YOU ALL ARE FANTASTIC PEOPLE. IT WILL BE A PLEASURE TO FLY NEAR YOU GUYS, even if you have to be warned about my wake turbulence. And, if you have time today, try to do something nice for someone, like helping an elderly passenger by giving her carry on bag to that young punk standing near her on the curb. They know each other, right? See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Red Baron]

GL,

Thanks for the response. I have a friend there at Delta who I spoke with a few days ago about the integration. He was hired in 2000, and very informative. I was involved in a merger prior to Mohawk-Alleghany, so obviously this will be different. I do disagree with you on some specifics about where our guys will be placed. In the end, it is out of my control, and for that matter, most pilots of both airlines. If it goes to arbitration, so be it. I can still laugh about the outcome though. Then, I will deal with it.

RB

PS...Thanks for the warning on your wake. We don't get that in LBB. It is all new to us here at the "small Texas airline."

 

[General Lee]

GL,

Thanks for the response. I have a friend there at Delta who I spoke with a few days ago about the integration. He was hired in 2000, and very informative. I was involved in a merger prior to Mohawk-Alleghany, so obviously this will be different. I do disagree with you on some specifics about where our guys will be placed. In the end, it is out of my control, and for that matter, most pilots of both airlines. If it goes to arbitration, so be it. I can still laugh about the outcome though. Then, I will deal with it.

RB

PS...Thanks for the warning on your wake. We don't get that in LBB. It is all new to us here at the "small Texas airline."

Oh come on now buddy, don't short change yourself. YOU GUYS ARE FANTASTIC. And, you will be flying 737-800s, so finally you will fly a plane that COULD accidentally hit the tail if you over rotate on takeoff and landing. Whatever you do, don't do that! It will lead you right to the sim. (I haven't done that yet, though!)

Anyway, you are RIGHT, you have no control over the process. There will be plenty said by both sides, with hurt feelings for awhile, but then the arbitrators will come up with the decision, and then you can blame all of your woes on the ARBITRATORS. See, you don't have to blame the Citrus pilots, you can blame the arbitrators and your own lawyers. There you go. After a couple years together, it won't even become a major discussion during dinner at a layover, especially after you say "Hey, I am a corndog, are you a critter?" Once you get that out of the way and both of you know which page you are on, then it gets easier, and you don't just start yapping in the cockpit stuff like "Those DAMN lazy Southern boy Critter pilots, they don't know our procedures" or "I flew with a Corndog Captain last trip who went to the Air Farce Academy, and he was so into himself, and he called himself "Iron Eagle 1"......." You want to know who is sitting next to you before you open your mouth and say something that would disturb the "culture" for the trip..... Other than walking on eggshells a bit, it will be AWESOME. And just think, you can show those Critters beautiful LBB, and they can introduce you to Flint and Tunica. THAT WOULD BE COOL.


Regardless, you ALL ARE FANTASTIC INDIVIDUALS. REALLY. YOU GUYS SHOULD ALL BE ELECTED TO THE COOL PILOT HALL OF FAME. And, if you have time tonight, try to do something nice for someone. Maybe hand the valet at the restaurant a $5 bill before he parks your car, and tell him something nice, like "See, not getting your highschool diploma DOES have it's advantages!" See ya!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[cactuspilot]

Don't sell us short so quick. We have already hit the tail on a 300 on rotation. At least once.

 

[400ADude]

Which is why AirTran pilots will never agree to DOH.

Taking away 25% of our Captain's seats and giving them to Southwest F/O's is definitely something arbitrators would consider a "windfall". No one should lose their seat over the deal.

Like I said, it'll be fair, or it'll go to an arbitrator. Anything else is just typical FI message board banter. I trust our MC implicitly, as I've flown with and known two of them for over a decade, one of the other two had my back during the ALPA merger, and therefore they have my full support and trust.

:beer: Beers on me Lear!

 

[Lear70]

Yeah, well, wouldn't be the first time I ate my words...

Guinness with a shot of Jameson dropped in the middle of it, please.

 

[luvfan]

I love sea lawyers...

who don't know the difference between $hit and apple butter lecturing us on precedence. Was it precedent or precedence?

You mean it's not the same thing?

BTW as far as crediblity...GL...bubkes.

 

[chris69]

Lear,
As many as you want...
And if we're blessed by some of our better looking talent (not as good as it used to be) vanilla vodkas til presentation.

 

[400ADude]

Yeah, well, wouldn't be the first time I ate my words...

Guinness with a shot of Jameson dropped in the middle of it, please.

:beer:

 

[SWA/FO]

Guinness with a shot of Jameson dropped in the middle of it, please.

I believe that is called an Irish Car Bomb...

 

[GuppyWN]

They do go BOOM! The Flying Saucer in LIT can validate.

Gup

 

[Lear70]

Lear,
As many as you want...
And if we're blessed by some of our better looking talent (not as good as it used to be) vanilla vodkas til presentation.

Vanilla vodkas... gotta try that one. And presentation sounds promising, maybe your talent can train our talent, as our HR department has done quite well in the last year or so, especially in MCO. :beer:

 

[Wesb737fo]

They do go BOOM! The Flying Saucer in LIT can validate.

Gup

Dang! The Flying Saucer.... Is that place still around? I haven't been there in 10 years.

 

[maru657]

Says to me if we(SWA pilots) don't get at least a descent
bump in seniority this would be a windfall (sp?) for the AT pilots. Am I wrong? Better pay benefits QOL job security days off bases. What is our windfall?
Respectfully
Fr8

First off, really glad I'm retired. My generation had it bad enough, de-regulation and all, but this generation seems to practice an advanced form of solipsism which garuntees labor strife. The fact that the business model at Southwest is reaching terminus ie; no more rapid growth displays a problematic approach to business and is the logical outcome of what is basically a ponzi scheme. That in conjunction with national economic distress produces a paradigm change. The question is, "can Southwest and SWAPA adjust"? Basically your back to the regulated airline model without the pension plans or national union support that existed then. Oh well, whistling past the graveyard here.

 

[chris69]

Lear,
The Vanilla Vodka's are for certain LAS based stews of rebellious Mormon persuasion to show the rather ample goods.
Men shall stick to the hard stuff and beer(s) and mixes therof.
Of course liquor before beer in the clear.

 

[tankerhead]

Ponzi scheme, eh? That's a twisted way of looking at one of the more successful companies around. I bet you'd avert your eyes if you were subjected to some vodka-induced presentations, yes? Weirdo.

 

[slaquer5]

First off, really glad I'm retired. My generation had it bad enough, de-regulation and all, but this generation seems to practice an advanced form of solipsism which garuntees labor strife. The fact that the business model at Southwest is reaching terminus ie; no more rapid growth displays a problematic approach to business and is the logical outcome of what is basically a ponzi scheme. That in conjunction with national economic distress produces a paradigm change. The question is, "can Southwest and SWAPA adjust"? Basically your back to the regulated airline model without the pension plans or national union support that existed then. Oh well, whistling past the graveyard here.

ME,ME ME

I am sad to hear de-regulation and all, was so hard on you. It is also a shame that the poor and middle class now get to fly. Why should aunt Suzie, and her 3 kids get to go see grandma?

I agree, the good old days when it was several thousand dollars to fly coast to coast.

Enjoy your retirement looking down on the average Joe.

 

[waveflyer]

Maru- can I ask? How long have you been retired? There's just a big difference usually between the recently retired and our 80 year olds.
And can you please define Ponzi scheme for me?
Just wondering if your knowledge of them is more sophisticated than Rick Perry's.
If it is, then you'll have to explain how you used the term so ridiculously in the post above.

 

[JT12345]

400. You are such a Flightinfo loser. Keep up the research.

 

[maru657]

Maru- can I ask? How long have you been retired? There's just a big difference usually between the recently retired and our 80 year olds.
And can you please define Ponzi scheme for me?
Just wondering if your knowledge of them is more sophisticated than Rick Perry's.
If it is, then you'll have to explain how you used the term so ridiculously in the post above.

Well, OK, but I doubt that I can overcome your inherit prejudices in this matter. First, age, old enough my great granddaughter had to teach me how to use this computer. Ponzi, a unsustainable enterprise requiring continuously greater amounts of investment or growth. ie; Southwest the poster child of de-regulation, no pension, no lifelong earned benefit supporting the health and welfare of a retiree. A business model requiring constant and unrelenting growth to sustain the desires of a labour force for a returnable income. In point of fact the current labor problems being the result of enimic growth. However you can rationalize any argument and Rick Perry,s nothing new. Just another snake oil salesman with a penchant for celebrity.

 

[madjack]

Just another snake oil salesman with a penchant for celebrity.

So true and he will lose to Obama...I am predicting the economy will improve in the next 18 months and the Senator from Chi town will keep his job! Crazy country!

 

[SWA Bubba]

Well, OK, but I doubt that I can overcome your inherit prejudices in this matter. First, age, old enough my great granddaughter had to teach me how to use this computer. Ponzi, a unsustainable enterprise requiring continuously greater amounts of investment or growth. ie; Southwest the poster child of de-regulation, no pension, no lifelong earned benefit supporting the health and welfare of a retiree. A business model requiring constant and unrelenting growth to sustain the desires of a labour force for a returnable income. In point of fact the current labor problems being the result of enimic growth. However you can rationalize any argument and Rick Perry,s nothing new. Just another snake oil salesman with a penchant for celebrity.

Actually, Mr Maru,

I'd submit that you actually have it backwards. The legacy airlines (of which I assume you're a retiree of) are much closer to being a ponzi scheme than SWA.

You said that SWA's no pension and no "lifelong earned benefit" for retirees makes it ponzi, and that it requires constant and unrelenting growth. Don't think so. The legacy airlines (and every other company with a "traditional" retirement with generous life-long benefits gained through numerous union contrracts) are the ones with cash-flow issues. If THEY don't grow and end up with constant revenue year-over-year, they're in trouble, because they have an exponentially growing number of retirees needing to be paid benefits, which each year take a ever-increasing slice of the revenue pie to pay those lower down on the retiree "pyramid."

For example, General Motors used to need $1,800 from every car sold to fund its retirees' benefits. Every car; before any materials were paid for, before the workers who were actually making the cars got paid. That number grew and grew until it was unsustainable. They and legacy airlines, went through BK court to renegotiate and/or dump those obligations because they couldn't afford those unending increases in payouts, with the smaller profit margins they were making.

SWA on the other hand, as you pointed out, works different. Each pilot funds his own retirement through 401-k, profit sharing, stocks, etc. with company-provided contributions paid as-you-go. Therefore, SWA pilot retirees are not burdening the company with a pyramid of ever-increasing future financial obligations. 'Cause doing THAT sounds a little like ponzi.

For us, lack of growth (current "labor problems" you mentioned) just means people bitch about being on reserve or not upgrading fast enough for their tastes. That's part's pretty much the same for every airline (although we temporarily have the additional angst of the intregration with AAI). However, in the mean while, we're still enjoying great pay and benefits and continuing to fund our own retirements. Other airlines with traditional retirement plans? No so much. No legacy airline has adequately funded its retirement obligation in years. They can't afford to.

See my point about Ponzi?

Bubba

 

[SkiFishFly]

Bubba,
You have it absolutely correct. I would add that when an employee retired in the old system, they were just beginning their financial burden on the company and new employees. Under the SWA/401K system, retirements actually lower the costs to the airline as the replacement is hired at much lower costs to include much lower requirements for 401k match.

Now if we could just change SS to a defined contirbution plan...

 

[redflyer65]

And the fact that SEVERAL retired captains were made millionaires just in stock options grants alone...

Not even counting the 401k and profit sharing. Those guys are doing just fine and retirement, and SW isn't paying them anything right now. As a matter of fact, most of the things on the Southwest property are paid off to begin with. Over 80 percent of the airframes are own outright, free and clear.

RF